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Traditional Geo. Distribution of English Surnames

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  • Traditional Geo. Distribution of English Surnames

    Would anyone care to comment on any apparent traditional geographic distribution of the following English surnames?

    1. Meason
    2. Banks
    3. Woodworth
    4. Thurman
    5. Hill
    6. Underwood
    7. Mansfield
    8. Hollingsworth
    9. Tally

    I am gathering data to develop a testable hypothesis that can clarify the relationships between various Mason/Meason families and perhaps identify a significant R1b1b2h cluster.

    Thanks, and have a good one.

    Jack

  • #2
    Hi Clochaire,
    Is this any good?
    http://www.nationaltrustnames.org.uk/Surnames.aspx
    If you put a surname in the search engine it will give you areas where the surname is common...I have found it interesting when doing my family tree!

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks, Burto!

      Some of these are rather common, widespread names. But there may be a center of gravity in areas like Yorkshire, Lancashire, Derbyshire.

      Could that be significant? Do these areas constitute something of a large geographic / economic zone? Kind of like New York / Newark area in the US? I don't think I know much about English geography.

      Thanks again.

      Jack

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi,
        From doing my family tree I have noticed that certain surnames are exclusive to specific areas which has been great for me!
        From my own research it seems that the industrial revolution caused most of my lot to move from the country to the cities, however all my ancestors with "exclusive" surnames were female and the name died out!
        It's interesting you put those 3 counties...my "exclusive" lot hailed from Derbyshire...is that just because you have ancestors from there too?
        As for economic reasons I guess Yorkshire and Lancashire have big cities (Sheffield, Leeds, Liverpool) but Derby isn't as big.
        http://www.derbyshireuk.net/celts.html

        I would say the surname Mansfield is pretty self explanatory:
        http://www.mansfield.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=453
        burto
        Registered User
        Last edited by burto; 27 July 2008, 05:10 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          This is an excellent site for family history in Derbyshire to give you a feel for names:
          http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/frontpag.htm
          Found this guy on there too:
          http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/A88-DNA.htm
          burto
          Registered User
          Last edited by burto; 27 July 2008, 05:23 PM.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by burto
            Hi,
            From doing my family tree I have noticed that certain surnames are exclusive to specific areas which has been great for me!
            From my own research it seems that the industrial revolution caused most of my lot to move from the country to the cities, however all my ancestors with "exclusive" surnames were female and the name died out!
            It's interesting you put those 3 counties...my "exclusive" lot hailed from Derbyshire...is that just because you have ancestors from there too?
            As for economic reasons I guess Yorkshire and Lancashire have big cities (Sheffield, Leeds, Liverpool) but Derby isn't as big.
            http://www.derbyshireuk.net/celts.html

            I would say the surname Mansfield is pretty self explanatory:
            http://www.mansfield.gov.uk/index.aspx?articleid=453
            Burto,

            It could be that I descend from some North county Masons. But for various reasons that I have discussed in other threads, I currently think that dna results reported for me may actually belong to others named Mason / Meason who seem to have tested at the same time as me.

            These other fellows seem to have a very well-developed genealogy, at least from the point that they settled in N. Virginia colony. I get the impression that "near matches" reported for me may be more consistent with the following theory of the other fellows' ultimate origin in England:

            Right now I think that his Measons / Masons came to N. Virginia from Lancashire/Derbyshire/South Yorkshire region in 17th century. I think that these areas gravitated toward Royalist side in civil wars---N. Virginia certainly did.

            Also, while not all concerned have full SNP tests, I think that patterns observed to date may refect a type of regional cluster for subclade R1b1b2h--some unusual values at 447/437/448.

            You have mentioned Celtic Y STR profiles
            for Derbyshire. I believe that current thinking on R1b1b2h is that it reflects remote Celtic origin. Specifically, it is thought that maybe some of these came to England with the Vikings, possibly representing Celts assimilated with Danish Vikings.

            I think York is famous for a Viking heritage, though I don't know whether these were specifically Danish.

            There are some gaps in genealogies and lab discrepancies here, but some fundamental patterns are emerging.

            Again, thanks for the info!

            Jack

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Clochaire
              ...Lancashire/Derbyshire/South Yorkshire region in 17th century... I think that these areas gravitated toward Royalist side in civil wars---N. Virginia certainly did.
              A more careful reading shows me that I overgeneralized about regional sympathies in these wars, probably based on loyalties of some elite families. Now that I read more, I suspect that the split was probably along social class or urban rural lines, rather than simplistically by county.

              Though I still find it interesting that New England colonizers seemed to both come from E. England and be Parliamentarian, and Virginians to both come more from N. England and be Royalist.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by burto
                This is an excellent site for family history in Derbyshire to give you a feel for names:
                http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/frontpag.htm
                Found this guy on there too:
                http://www.wirksworth.org.uk/A88-DNA.htm
                Yes--these are great!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Meason : Measham?

                  Originally posted by burto
                  This is an excellent site for family history in Derbyshire to give you a feel for names...
                  Say, what do folks think of the idea that some Measons /Masons could derive from a place named Measham in Derbyshire?

                  I've heard that some older speakers of Northern dialects pronounced "ea" as equivalent to "ay" in current American English. And that "h" in the "ham" suffix was not always spoken.

                  I have seen Meason and Measom used interchangeably, but it is hard to tell if this is reflective of orthography in the original document or "ham-hands" of a modern transcriber.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Clochaire
                    Say, what do folks think of the idea that some Measons /Masons could derive from a place named Measham in Derbyshire?
                    Have you seen this website:
                    http://www.surnamedb.com/
                    Although some names in my tree aren't listed I did find one that stems back from a Celtic tribe!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Pretty cool -- thanks, Burto!

                      I'm not quite sure what to do with the data next, but the inference that I draw from info available suggests that the Y STR profile for me comes from an English family from one of the areas around S. Yorkshire/Darbyshire. Possibly subclade R1b1b2h, which some say descend ultimately from Jutland Celts who came to Britain with the Danish Vikings.

                      I think that I am seeing a pattern of a number of such families, R1b1b2h and otherwise, who emigrated to N. Virginia colonies in mid 1600's. Many of these families later continued similar migration routes through Kentucky, Missouri and Texas.

                      My curiosity is stroked as to whether their emigration had anything to do with English Civil wars of that era. I think the issue is maybe more complicated, but the impression I have is that these counties had relatively high adherence to Royalist positions, and carried this cultural mindset into American South.

                      Lots to learn here.

                      Jack

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi,
                        No problem, always happy to help someone who's ancestors hail from the same area as mine
                        I found a map of the areas where the Royalists were during ther civil war:
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:E...42_to_1645.JPG
                        Lancashire is Royalist, but South Yorkshire and Derbyshire aren't?
                        Yes York is famous for it's vikings, there is a tourist attraction there called Jorvik where you see the sites and smell the smells!!
                        http://www.jorvik-viking-centre.co.uk/

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Surnames tend to remain concentrated in the areas where they originated. I have used this fact by searching the 1901 census (www.1901censusonline.com) for the name in question. It often throws up a concentration of the name at least at county level which can be useful. By the way if you try this and get a huge number of hits for your name you can cut the numbers down by searching for an age range which limits the numbers.

                          John

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by john franks
                            Surnames tend to remain concentrated in the areas where they originated....

                            ...By the way if you try this and get a huge number of hits for your name you can cut the numbers down by searching for an age range which limits the numbers.

                            John
                            You seem to be quite right about persistence of surnames in their traditional homelands. I have to admit that this surprised me--at least with regard to England. I had the impression that there was a great deal more mobility in these countries with long-standing, mature market economies.

                            But I guess that I should really consider that this movement away from more traditional agricultural dominant economies is, historically, a very recent phenom, even in England.

                            This geographical persistence seems to heighten the irony apparent in Y STR results reported for me and a fellow w/ a variant of my surname (ie, he is Meason, I am Mason).

                            Many people would expect the Meason fellow to have a profile consistent w/ a North Midlands cluster of R1b1b2h. Meason seems to be most common in area between south Yorkshire and Leicestershire.

                            And with my O'Donnell connection in direct male line, I expect that I should be more likely to be R1b1b2e. But in fact, labs have reported the exact opposite.

                            Go figure.

                            Jack

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