My J2a M410 ancestry

[josh w.]

Bob, Dienekes (2008) suggests that there was a north-south (Caucasus-Arabia) distribution of J1 probably with the center point in Iraq, i.e. spreading in both directions from the center.
A subclade analysis would be helpful in Italy since according to the J2 project, J2a is mainly neolithic and J2b is mainly bronze age at least in the Mediterranean. An STR cluster analysis might also be helpful. The J2 project for example has identified some primarily Jewish clusters. (I am in one of them--an apparently J2a* cluster). It is not clear as to when the clusters moved in the Jewish direction but probably after the Diaspora. With more Near and Middle Eastern subjects, Muslim or perhaps Semitic J2 clusters may be found.

[bob_chasm]

Arab J2 and J1

Bob, sorry, I article I mentioned deals with J2 but does not go into Carthage or Malta. I think I got the latter information from NG press releases around Sept. 2007. Their point was that Carthage was Phoenician because it had more J2 than J1 unlike the rest of North Africa where the reverse is the case. A similar point can be made by contrasting modern Lebanon with Arabia. I presume that NG will publish these findings soon.

Josh, You are right, there can be exceptions to the general rule such as the North being J2 and the South being J1. For example, consider the Northeastern Caucasian population of Dagestan. You would think, this far north there would be very little J1. However, over 60% of Avars and 50% of Lezgins belong to haplogroup J1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_(Y-DNA)

[J Man]

Capelli et al. - Y chromosome genetic variation in the Italian peninsula is clinal ...

Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 2007 (?)

I don't know if it's freely available. If not, contact me offlist.

cacio

Alright sounds good thank you cacio.

[josh w.]

Bob, sorry, I article I mentioned deals with J2 but does not go into Carthage or Malta. I think I got the latter information from NG press releases around Sept. 2007. Their point was that Carthage was Phoenician because it had more J2 than J1 unlike the rest of North Africa where the reverse is the case. A similar point can be made by contrasting modern Lebanon with Arabia. I presume that NG will publish these findings soon.

[bob_chasm]

Ng

Bob, I couldn't find the title of the NG research. It is in an article by Zalloua and others in the March? 2008 edition of the American Journal of Human Genetics.

josh, I have seen references to this study on message boards, but havent seen it myself. I agree with the basic point that there is more J1 than J2 in North Africa, not withstanding initial studies showing equal numbers of J1 and J2 among Arabs in Morocco and NG's own website showing J2 expanding from the middle east into Europe and North Africa.

Click on Genetic markers and M172

https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/atlas.html

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1181965&rendertype=figure&id=FG2

btw, in the 9th century I would think there were people in the Islamic empire from Iraq/ Syria/ Egypt/ Turkey and Persia etc too that went to Sicily.

[bob_chasm]

Very helpful

All this is true, except that the estimate I read in a history of Sicily is that 1/3 of Sicily's people were Muslim by the time it was taken by the Normans. There was an extensive immigration of Muslims from North Africa and the Middle East that led to this situation.

I also believe that it's possible that many of the Muslims at the time of the Norman conquest were descendants of Christians who converted to Islam for economic and social reasons, as you state above. In any event, the yDNA results in the Sicily Project, where we have results for a little over 200 paternal lines, show that the haplogroups that are the main "Mediterranean" haplogroups (E1b1b, G2, T, J1 and J2) represent about 60% of the paternal lines. The other 40% are in haplogroups that probably represent deep ancestry from European populations.

It's hard to say what part of this 60% represents Neolithic migrations, Greek or Phoenician/Carthaginian colonies or the settling of Muslims in Sicily during the Middle Ages. Obviously, some of the population of Sicily today must owe their ancestry to the Muslim presence in Sicily for about 200 years.

Thanks for the insights, your post is very helpful and makes a lot of sense. My personal interest with J2a1* from this region has to do with the fact that my family is Fatimid (descendant of the grandson of Muhammad) like the rulers of Muslim Sicily. Also because, I am a J2a1* and my only 12/12 match is a Rossi from Italy. My next closest match is an 11/12, Ashkenazi who is 1 of 40 from Moldova. I dont have any Muslim or Hindu 12/12 matches from India. The only 11/12 match from India is 1 of more than 1000.

[josh w.]

Bob, I couldn't find the title of the NG research. It is in an article by Zalloua and others in the March? 2008 edition of the American Journal of Human Genetics.

[MMaddi]

Came across this website with some staggering stats about Arabs in Sicily who ruled it for over 200 years. Are these disputed?

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art168.htm

(Sicily was at least half Muslim by 1060)

Muslim women --many of whom were ex-Christians converted to Islam to contract financially or socially advantageous marriages to Muslim men

Bal'harm (Palermo) was repopulated and became one of the largest Arab cities after Baghdad and Cordoba (Cordova), and one of the most beautiful.

Kasr Yanni was still ruled by its emir, Ibn Al-Hawas, who held out for years. His successor, Ibn Hamud, surrendered, and converted to Christianity, only in 1087

The Normans gradually "Latinized" Sicily, and this social process laid the groundwork for the introduction of Catholicism (as opposed to eastern Orthodoxy). Widespread conversion ensued, and by the 1280s there were few --if any-- Muslims in Sicily. Yet, the mass immigration of north-African Arabs (and Berbers) was the greatest Sicilian immigration since that of the ancient Greeks, leaving today's Sicilians as Saracen as Hellenic.

All this is true, except that the estimate I read in a history of Sicily is that 1/3 of Sicily's people were Muslim by the time it was taken by the Normans. There was an extensive immigration of Muslims from North Africa and the Middle East that led to this situation.

I also believe that it's possible that many of the Muslims at the time of the Norman conquest were descendants of Christians who converted to Islam for economic and social reasons, as you state above. In any event, the yDNA results in the Sicily Project, where we have results for a little over 200 paternal lines, show that the haplogroups that are the main "Mediterranean" haplogroups (E1b1b, G2, T, J1 and J2) represent about 60% of the paternal lines. The other 40% are in haplogroups that probably represent deep ancestry from European populations.

It's hard to say what part of this 60% represents Neolithic migrations, Greek or Phoenician/Carthaginian colonies or the settling of Muslims in Sicily during the Middle Ages. Obviously, some of the population of Sicily today must owe their ancestry to the Muslim presence in Sicily for about 200 years.

[cacio]

Bob and Josh:

there is no doubt that Italy had lots of contacts and influences over time, from the Romans on, and there must be a trace. (My own haplogroup is a clear example of a levantine influence.) Overall, however, as others have pointed out, there is just too much J2 relative to other sources. Perhaps a little bit of it came later, but just a small fraction. Clearly, it would be good to be able to distinguish subclades and interpret them. (Other than J2b, which seems to have a clearer pattern).

For J1, the situation is different and you have a point. When looking at small samples from individual towns, there could be a lot of randomness. (And for instance, the Capelli paper finds 7% J1 in Tuscany ...).

In general, I feel that really little is known about the influences of invading people in Italy. Going to the other side of Italy, what was the genetic influence of Germanic populations? They ruled Italy for a long time.

cacio

[bob_chasm]

J

Bob, Arabs and North Africans are not that high in J2 although they are high in J1. This pattern was the basis for National Geographic's claim that Carthage and Malta were indeed of Phoenician origin. The Sephardic pattern is unclear. Some J2 may have originated in Israel but other J2 may have come from host countries in the northern Mediterranean--there seems to be a bit more J2 in Sephardim than Ashkenazim.
My guess is that southern Italian J1 is mainly Muslim with a very small Jewish component, but that most of the J2 is from the westward neolithic spread of J2. You are right on about the need for a subclade analysis to help resolve the issue. .

Josh, you are quite right, there does seem to be more J2 among Sephardim than Ashkenazim but in both Jewish populations, there is more J2 than J1. Also, can you post a link to National Geographic's article? Thanks.

[josh w.]

Bob, Arabs and North Africans are not that high in J2 although they are high in J1. This pattern was the basis for National Geographic's claim that Carthage and Malta were indeed of Phoenician origin. The Sephardic pattern is unclear. Most J2 may have originated in Israel but other J2 may have come from host countries in the northern Mediterranean--there seems to be a bit more J2 in Sephardim than Ashkenazim.
My guess is that southern Italian J1 is mainly Muslim with a very small Jewish component, but that most of the J2 is from the westward neolithic spread of J2. There might be a small Muslim J2 component and an even smaller Jewish J2 component. You are right on about the need for a subclade analysis to help resolve the issue. .

[bob_chasm]

Haplogroup J

You are right, I hadn't paid attention to the large J1 in Gargano. I opened again the Di Giacomo paper, so more data on Apulia:

Casarano: J2=25%, J1=0% (n=20)
Brindisi J2 21.2% J1 2.6% (n=38)
Altamura J2=12 J1=0% (n=25)

and nearby:
Matera: J2 12%.5 J1 0% (n=24)
up the coast:
Pescara: J2 15%, J1=15% (n=20)

Foggia, incidentally, displays the lowest R1b frequency, 11%.

So we have two outliers in Gargano and in Pescara (which is not Apulia and I don't think had any Arab connection). The rest of Apulia has lower J1. But perhaps we're making too much of each town. The sample sizes are small (20-30), and in general they seem to show idiosyncratic variation. What we can say is that J2 seems solidly spread in the South, J1 is common but a little more random.

Yet more data. Capelli 2006:
NW Apulia: J2=17% J1=2% (n=46)
S Apulia: J2=24%, J1=1% (n=71)
West Calabria: J2=35%, J1=4% (n=57)

Capelli seems in general less J1-friendly, also in the other samples. (Max frequency is 7% in Central Tuscany, but with n=41, not much can be said). J2 is however always greater than 15%, except in the only nothern sample (Val Badia, up in the Alps) where it's still 9% though. (In Di Giacomo, other N Italian places: Garfagnana, Genoa, and Val di Non, are around 7-10%, while Verona is 27%).

cacio

Cacio, Would you agree that this idiosyncratic variation suggests J1 hasnt been in Italy long enough to mix evenly with the general population? That, therefore, the story of J2 in Italy is complex. For if a J1 population came to Italy this recently, then it would have had a J2 component with it too, since both Arabs and Jewish sources of J1 are a mixture of J1 and J2. Also because J2 seems to accompany J1 in Italy. As such, J2 in Italy is probably a mixture of neolithic and more recent J2 immigrants.

To determine the neolithic component of J2 in Italy we might want to compare the distribution of J2 subclades in Italy with those associated with the neolithic expansion in other J2 populations in Europe, such as J2f and J2b.

[cacio]

Capelli et al. - Y chromosome genetic variation in the Italian peninsula is clinal ...

Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution 2007 (?)

I don't know if it's freely available. If not, contact me offlist.

cacio

[J Man]

You are right, I hadn't paid attention to the large J1 in Gargano. I opened again the Di Giacomo paper, so more data on Apulia:

Casarano: J2=25%, J1=0% (n=20)
Brindisi J2 21.2% J1 2.6% (n=38)
Altamura J2=12 J1=0% (n=25)

and nearby:
Matera: J2 12%.5 J1 0% (n=24)
up the coast:
Pescara: J2 15%, J1=15% (n=20)

Foggia, incidentally, displays the lowest R1b frequency, 11%.

So we have two outliers in Gargano and in Pescara (which is not Apulia and I don't think had any Arab connection). The rest of Apulia has lower J1. But perhaps we're making too much of each town. The sample sizes are small (20-30), and in general they seem to show idiosyncratic variation. What we can say is that J2 seems solidly spread in the South, J1 is common but a little more random.

Yet more data. Capelli 2006:
NW Apulia: J2=17% J1=2% (n=46)
S Apulia: J2=24%, J1=1% (n=71)
West Calabria: J2=35%, J1=4% (n=57)

Capelli seems in general less J1-friendly, also in the other samples. (Max frequency is 7% in Central Tuscany, but with n=41, not much can be said). J2 is however always greater than 15%, except in the only nothern sample (Val Badia, up in the Alps) where it's still 9% though. (In Di Giacomo, other N Italian places: Garfagnana, Genoa, and Val di Non, are around 7-10%, while Verona is 27%).

cacio

Wow the figures for J2 in Calabria are very high in the Capelli 2006 paper. DO you have a link for this paper at all cacio? I really would be right at home in Calabria!

I still think the most likely source for my line is from a Neolithic settler though.

[cacio]

You are right, I hadn't paid attention to the large J1 in Gargano. I opened again the Di Giacomo paper, so more data on Apulia:

Casarano: J2=25%, J1=0% (n=20)
Brindisi J2 21.2% J1 2.6% (n=38)
Altamura J2=12 J1=0% (n=25)

and nearby:
Matera: J2 12%.5 J1 0% (n=24)
up the coast:
Pescara: J2 15%, J1=15% (n=20)

Foggia, incidentally, displays the lowest R1b frequency, 11%.

So we have two outliers in Gargano and in Pescara (which is not Apulia and I don't think had any Arab connection). The rest of Apulia has lower J1. But perhaps we're making too much of each town. The sample sizes are small (20-30), and in general they seem to show idiosyncratic variation. What we can say is that J2 seems solidly spread in the South, J1 is common but a little more random.

Yet more data. Capelli 2006:
NW Apulia: J2=17% J1=2% (n=46)
S Apulia: J2=24%, J1=1% (n=71)
West Calabria: J2=35%, J1=4% (n=57)

Capelli seems in general less J1-friendly, also in the other samples. (Max frequency is 7% in Central Tuscany, but with n=41, not much can be said). J2 is however always greater than 15%, except in the only nothern sample (Val Badia, up in the Alps) where it's still 9% though. (In Di Giacomo, other N Italian places: Garfagnana, Genoa, and Val di Non, are around 7-10%, while Verona is 27%).

cacio