My J2a M410 ancestry

[J Man]

I think that most likely there are five ways that my paternal line ancestor could have gotten to Italy. I will list them below.

1. A Neolithic agriculturalist who most likely arrived by sea. Brought farming technology and a Neolithic way of life to Calabria and Southern Italy. Then became part of one of the native cultures of Calabria or Southern Italy.

2. A Bronze age sea farer who came from either Anatolia, Greece or the Cyclades.

3. A Greek colonist or soldier who lived or spent some time in one of the Greek colonies or cities in Calabria or Southern Italy.

A Phoenician trader/explorer.

5. A Jewish slave in the Roman empire who somehow made it to Calabria. Or a Jew who settled in Calabria.

To me one of the first three seem the most logical. I really do not think that I am descended from a Jewish man or a Phoenician but they still are possibilities.

On my recent ancestral origins page at FTDNA my closest matches are one step mutations at the 12 marker level. One is from Greece, two from Italy and one from Scotland.

[cacio]

Many papers (eg Semino etc) would argue that (1) is by far the most likely. Followed perhaps by 3, at a distance.

Were there phoenician colonies in Calabria? I know there were some in Western Sicily and Sardinia. But not that many.

cacio

[J Man]

Many papers (eg Semino etc) would argue that (1) is by far the most likely. Followed perhaps by 3, at a distance.

Were there phoenician colonies in Calabria? I know there were some in Western Sicily and Sardinia. But not that many.

cacio

Hi Cacio,

I actually do agree with you. It seems very logical that my ancestor arrived during the Neolithic.

I don't really know if there were any real Phoenician colonies in Calabria but I was just thinking that maybe there was a link because of the trade that was going on throughout the Mediterranean.

[bob_chasm]

disputed?

Came across this website with some staggering stats about Arabs in Sicily who ruled it for over 200 years. Are these disputed?

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art168.htm

(Sicily was at least half Muslim by 1060)

Muslim women --many of whom were ex-Christians converted to Islam to contract financially or socially advantageous marriages to Muslim men

Bal'harm (Palermo) was repopulated and became one of the largest Arab cities after Baghdad and Cordoba (Cordova), and one of the most beautiful.

Kasr Yanni was still ruled by its emir, Ibn Al-Hawas, who held out for years. His successor, Ibn Hamud, surrendered, and converted to Christianity, only in 1087

The Normans gradually "Latinized" Sicily, and this social process laid the groundwork for the introduction of Catholicism (as opposed to eastern Orthodoxy). Widespread conversion ensued, and by the 1280s there were few --if any-- Muslims in Sicily. Yet, the mass immigration of north-African Arabs (and Berbers) was the greatest Sicilian immigration since that of the ancient Greeks, leaving today's Sicilians as Saracen as Hellenic.

[J Man]

Came across this website with some staggering stats about Arabs in Sicily who ruled it for over 200 years. Are these disputed?

http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art168.htm

(Sicily was at least half Muslim by 1060)

Muslim women --many of whom were ex-Christians converted to Islam to contract financially or socially advantageous marriages to Muslim men

Bal'harm (Palermo) was repopulated and became one of the largest Arab cities after Baghdad and Cordoba (Cordova), and one of the most beautiful.

Kasr Yanni was still ruled by its emir, Ibn Al-Hawas, who held out for years. His successor, Ibn Hamud, surrendered, and converted to Christianity, only in 1087

The Normans gradually "Latinized" Sicily, and this social process laid the groundwork for the introduction of Catholicism (as opposed to eastern Orthodoxy). Widespread conversion ensued, and by the 1280s there were few --if any-- Muslims in Sicily. Yet, the mass immigration of north-African Arabs (and Berbers) was the greatest Sicilian immigration since that of the ancient Greeks, leaving today's Sicilians as Saracen as Hellenic.

You are correct Bob in that Sicily had a lot of North African people and Arabs come to it in the early medeival ages. No doubt that they had some genetic impact on the island to a degree.

The region that my family comes from (Calabria) had a lot less immigration to it I believe than Sicily. The only big immigration to Calabria other than the ancient Greeks would be the refugee Albanians during the 1500s who fled the Balkans from the Ottoman empire.

[cacio]

The historical events are as you say. The estimates of who was Arabic or spoke what, of course, must be purely speculative. And a different question is whether Sicily bears a large genetic imprint from the Arabs or not. After all, Sicily was conquered by many foreign people before and after that.

I don't think there is any particular consensus on this question. But I think one key point to note is that the South and the Center of Italy in general have a lot of J (including J1) and E3b, as Sicily. Perhaps Sicily has a little more, but it's not a large difference. Yet the Arabs did not conquer the rest of the South, which remained under Byzantine influence and then became in part Norman.

cacio

[J Man]

The historical events are as you say. The estimates of who was Arabic or spoke what, of course, must be purely speculative. And a different question is whether Sicily bears a large genetic imprint from the Arabs or not. After all, Sicily was conquered by many foreign people before and after that.

I don't think there is any particular consensus on this question. But I think one key point to note is that the South and the Center of Italy in general have a lot of J (including J1) and E3b, as Sicily. Perhaps Sicily has a little more, but it's not a large difference. Yet the Arabs did not conquer the rest of the South, which remained under Byzantine influence and then became in part Norman.

cacio

I am pretty sure that Calabria has more J than Sicily does. According to the M410 project Calabria has around 21% J2a M410 and Puglia has around 25.5% J2a M410. A lot of this probably came during the Neolithic.

[cacio]

You are right. I also quickly looked at some papers. Di Giacomo 2004.
In Calabria, approx.:
Paola J2= 33.3% J1=11.1% (n=27)
Reggio Calabria: J2=27.3%, J1=9.1% (n=33)
Foggia: J2=44.6%, J1 0% (n=29)
Gargano: J2=20.6% J1 17.2% (n=27)

Semino finds less:
Calabria J2=22.8% J1=1.8% (n=57)
Apulia J2=29.1% J1=2.3% (n=86)

cacio

[cacio]

Another source:
Capelli 2005
E Sicily: J2=28.7% J1=6.9% (n=87)
SW Sicily: J2=27.3%, J1=0% (n=55)
NW Sicily: J2=11.4%, J1=7.1% (n=70)
Southern Italy: J2=16.2%, J1=4.4% (n=68)

[bob_chasm]

Neolithic marker

The historical events are as you say. The estimates of who was Arabic or spoke what, of course, must be purely speculative. And a different question is whether Sicily bears a large genetic imprint from the Arabs or not. After all, Sicily was conquered by many foreign people before and after that.

I don't think there is any particular consensus on this question. But I think one key point to note is that the South and the Center of Italy in general have a lot of J (including J1) and E3b, as Sicily. Perhaps Sicily has a little more, but it's not a large difference. Yet the Arabs did not conquer the rest of the South, which remained under Byzantine influence and then became in part Norman.

cacio

Cacio, I was under the impression that after the rulers of Calabria conquered Muslim Sicily, the Muslim population was moved to the mainland in Central Italy. So, it wouldnt surprize me if the threat of extermination on the mainland resulted in a large Muslim conversion to Christianity in this region.

As far as the language question is concerned, I think it was pretty neat to see a christian tombstone from Sicily with all four languages on it.

I would be more willing to dismiss Abrahamic, Israelite, Jewish ancestry for J Man if there were less J1 in Italy, like in Greece/ rest of Europe. Also, if there were more J2f and J2b in Italy like there are in Greece. I think that since J2a1* is a common subclade among the Cohanim and many Jews lived in Italy, Jewish/ Israelite ancestry cannot be dismissed. In addition, Samaritans and Bene Israel are J2a1* too so late Bronze Age Middle Eastern migration to Italy, is also a possibilty, if one believes in jewish traditions.

I dont think any firm conclusions can be reached about the time for when J Man's ancestors came to Italy, until more research is done, more haplogroup subclades discovered and greater differentiation made between J2 populations.

[cacio]

bob:

I wasn't aware of the fate of the Sicilian muslims after the Normans captured Sicily. Now that I think of it, I did hear that Frederick II had Arab bodyguards and even a small army, and that it was moved to the town of Lucera in Apulia.

So presumably there could be a little of it. However, I don't think the numbers as a whole match up. There is simply way too much J2 in S Italy, and J1 is rather common too. Whatever the number of sicilian muslims moved to the mainland, it cannot have been too big.

It would also be interesting if there were Y results from Lucera. The nearby (and larger) Foggia doesn't show J1, but it has a lot of J2.

As I think was discussed before, the recent paper on Greece (I forgot the authors) claims that J2b moved from Greece to the Balcanies, while a lot of J2 went directly from Anatolia to S Italy bypassing Greece. But I'm not familiar with the subclades of J2.

cacio

[bob_chasm]

bob:

I wasn't aware of the fate of the Sicilian muslims after the Normans captured Sicily. Now that I think of it, I did hear that Frederick II had Arab bodyguards and even a small army, and that it was moved to the town of Lucera in Apulia.

So presumably there could be a little of it. However, I don't think the numbers as a whole match up. There is simply way too much J2 in S Italy, and J1 is rather common too. Whatever the number of sicilian muslims moved to the mainland, it cannot have been too big.

It would also be interesting if there were Y results from Lucera. The nearby (and larger) Foggia doesn't show J1, but it has a lot of J2.

As I think was discussed before, the recent paper on Greece (I forgot the authors) claims that J2b moved from Greece to the Balcanies, while a lot of J2 went directly from Anatolia to S Italy bypassing Greece. But I'm not familiar with the subclades of J2.

cacio

Cacio, Quite right, Foggia doesnt have J1, but look down the road at Gargano:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.e-gargano.com/eng/index_file/gargano.park.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.e-gargano.com/eng/national.park.of.gargano.uk.htm&h=446&w=622&sz=90&hl=en&start=89&tbnid=i4rA_kdyH88SyM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGargano%2BFoggia%26start%3D72%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dstrict%26client%3Ddell-usuk%26channel%3Dus%26sa%3DN%26ad%3Dw5

With 19% J1 and a matching number of J2, according to the stats you provided, the genetic profile resembles some place in the middle east more than any place in Europe today.

[bob_chasm]

correction

Cacio, Quite right, Foggia doesnt have J1, but look down the road at Gargano:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.e-gargano.com/eng/index_file/gargano.park.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.e-gargano.com/eng/national.park.of.gargano.uk.htm&h=446&w=622&sz=90&hl=en&start=89&tbnid=i4rA_kdyH88SyM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=136&prev=/images%3Fq%3DGargano%2BFoggia%26start%3D72%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D18%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Dstrict%26client%3Ddell-usuk%26channel%3Dus%26sa%3DN%26ad%3Dw5

With 19% J1 and a matching number of J2, according to the stats you provided, the genetic profile resembles some place in the middle east more than any place in Europe today.

Thats 17% not 19% of J1

[cacio]

You are right, I hadn't paid attention to the large J1 in Gargano. I opened again the Di Giacomo paper, so more data on Apulia:

Casarano: J2=25%, J1=0% (n=20)
Brindisi J2 21.2% J1 2.6% (n=38)
Altamura J2=12 J1=0% (n=25)

and nearby:
Matera: J2 12%.5 J1 0% (n=24)
up the coast:
Pescara: J2 15%, J1=15% (n=20)

Foggia, incidentally, displays the lowest R1b frequency, 11%.

So we have two outliers in Gargano and in Pescara (which is not Apulia and I don't think had any Arab connection). The rest of Apulia has lower J1. But perhaps we're making too much of each town. The sample sizes are small (20-30), and in general they seem to show idiosyncratic variation. What we can say is that J2 seems solidly spread in the South, J1 is common but a little more random.

Yet more data. Capelli 2006:
NW Apulia: J2=17% J1=2% (n=46)
S Apulia: J2=24%, J1=1% (n=71)
West Calabria: J2=35%, J1=4% (n=57)

Capelli seems in general less J1-friendly, also in the other samples. (Max frequency is 7% in Central Tuscany, but with n=41, not much can be said). J2 is however always greater than 15%, except in the only nothern sample (Val Badia, up in the Alps) where it's still 9% though. (In Di Giacomo, other N Italian places: Garfagnana, Genoa, and Val di Non, are around 7-10%, while Verona is 27%).

cacio

[J Man]

You are right, I hadn't paid attention to the large J1 in Gargano. I opened again the Di Giacomo paper, so more data on Apulia:

Casarano: J2=25%, J1=0% (n=20)
Brindisi J2 21.2% J1 2.6% (n=38)
Altamura J2=12 J1=0% (n=25)

and nearby:
Matera: J2 12%.5 J1 0% (n=24)
up the coast:
Pescara: J2 15%, J1=15% (n=20)

Foggia, incidentally, displays the lowest R1b frequency, 11%.

So we have two outliers in Gargano and in Pescara (which is not Apulia and I don't think had any Arab connection). The rest of Apulia has lower J1. But perhaps we're making too much of each town. The sample sizes are small (20-30), and in general they seem to show idiosyncratic variation. What we can say is that J2 seems solidly spread in the South, J1 is common but a little more random.

Yet more data. Capelli 2006:
NW Apulia: J2=17% J1=2% (n=46)
S Apulia: J2=24%, J1=1% (n=71)
West Calabria: J2=35%, J1=4% (n=57)

Capelli seems in general less J1-friendly, also in the other samples. (Max frequency is 7% in Central Tuscany, but with n=41, not much can be said). J2 is however always greater than 15%, except in the only nothern sample (Val Badia, up in the Alps) where it's still 9% though. (In Di Giacomo, other N Italian places: Garfagnana, Genoa, and Val di Non, are around 7-10%, while Verona is 27%).

cacio

Wow the figures for J2 in Calabria are very high in the Capelli 2006 paper. DO you have a link for this paper at all cacio? I really would be right at home in Calabria!

I still think the most likely source for my line is from a Neolithic settler though.