Ethnic Identity --- philisophical question

[bob_chasm]

I can relate to that

Bob,

I was really surprised by someone else's reply to me in another thread last week (which I didn't reply to just to maintain peace in the forum), and I've read some unnecessarily unkind words in some other posts lately, so I guess I finally got defensive myself and misinterpreted yours to me. Sorry! I hope we can continue to banter back and forth about DNA - I do appreciate your input.

Vinnie

Vinnie, It has happened to me a number of times. Then those feelings spill over into another forum.

[bob_chasm]

To me, none of the words have any negative connotation. I never heard of 'cross worshippers' before, but that doesn't sound offensive to me at all, just descriptive. From an observers point of view, if I had never seen a Christian before, and then suddenly there were hordes of men arriving with flags that had crosses on them, and they are all wearing and carrying crosses, then I'd also call them 'cross worshippers', because that is what it looks like.

I don't see anything wrong with the term 'red indian'. I know that the term is used in England. I never heard the term in the US. It was so the English could explain which indian they were talking about, an American Indian instead of an Indian Indian, since England pretty much owned India for a while and the word Indian was for people from India. To me it's just an added syllable to differentiate. Don't know why it was 'red', instead of 'blue' or 'green'.

I don't really see a difference between Arab and Turk and Kurd, etc.
Saracen can describe anyone from that general area.

I've been called the generic word of 'German', by non-white people. And I'd say I have Scottish, English, etc. and they'd say, "whatever. it's all the same". It's a generic term for anyone who seems European. When I was in the grocery store I was told that I look European by someone who I think was from the Asia region (I'm clueless of where she was originally from specifically, I didn't ask.), and she went on to say that I have European eyes and she asked if I was from here, I said I was from here, and she said I looked like people from European countries, so I asked her what country she thought I looked like I was from, and she said, "Pennsylvania". And I said that yes I do have ancestors from Pennsylvania. She was very nice and I didn't feel like pointing out anything (arguing), so I left it at that, and told her that my mom was from Pennsylvania. And she smiled.
For the record, I probably wouldn't know what country she was from if she told me, because I don't know every one. I know that Korea and Japan are off the China coast, but that's pretty much it. I think she was from southasia, and I don't know all the names and the difference between those.

rainbow, in my opinion, it would be one thing for natives in America to confuse Europeans with cross worshippers, upon seeing them with flags with crosses on them. However, it's a little hard to believe that Muslims didnt know the difference between Christians and cross worshippers, when

1. Jesus was born in the middle east, (Not London England).
2. Inhabitants of Iraq, Syria, Turkey, Israel, Lebanon Jordan, Egypt and North Africa were predominantly Christians before accepting Islam.
3. the middle east region was ruled by Christian emperors for centuries before the coming of Islam.
4. The uncle of the prophet Muhammad's wife, Warqa was a Christian.
5. Muhammad had sent his followers to take shelter with a righteous Christian king in Ethiopia.
6. Jesus is described in the Quran as a messiah
7. Jesus is described as the objective of Christian worship in the Quran

[J Man]

Bob just wondering you are Muslim correct? Your line is also from India originally also right? Are you J2a M410 or J2b?

[bob_chasm]

Muslim

Bob just wondering you are Muslim correct? Your line is also from India originally also right? Are you J2a M410 or J2b?

J Man, I am a Muslim Unitarian Universalist. I am influenced by the views of scholars like Averroes, who advocated the separation of church and state in the 1200s. I differ in my understanding of Islam with many others, in that I believe in using the Bible to understand Muhammad as the last of many prophets who brought scriptures. Posts number 17 & 19 should fill in the details.

[J Man]

J Man, I am a Muslim Unitarian Universalist. I am influenced by the views of scholars like Averroes, who advocated the separation of church and state in the 1200s. I differ in my understanding of Islam with many others, in that I believe in using the Bible to understand Muhammad as the last of many prophets who brought scriptures. Posts number 17 & 19 should fill in the details.

That is pretty cool Bob. I have always found Islam to be an interesting religion. Your view and practice of it sound good to me.

Ahhh yes so I see that you are a J2a1* like me. Good stuff! As you can see my paternal line is from Italy. In my own family my father, my brother and myself all resemble my paternal grandfather the most I would say and he in turn resembles his own father my great grandfather. My great grandfather could have easily passed as a Turk, a man from the Caucasus or the Middle East. We all also have noses that are hooked. Mine is straighter than my grandfather's and father's noses but it still does have a hook to it. There are a lot of other Southern Italians that look like us though I would say.

[bob_chasm]

That is pretty cool Bob. I have always found Islam to be an interesting religion. Your view and practice of it sound good to me.

Ahhh yes so I see that you are a J2a1* like me. Good stuff! As you can see my paternal line is from Italy. In my own family my father, my brother and myself all resemble my paternal grandfather the most I would say and he in turn resembles his own father my great grandfather. My great grandfather could have easily passed as a Turk, a man from the Caucasus or the Middle East. We all also have noses that are hooked. Mine is straighter than my grandfather's and father's noses but it still does have a hook to it. There are a lot of other Southern Italians that look like us though I would say.

You are welcome to send me your email address at [email protected] and I will email you a photo of my son and I.

[J Man]

You are welcome to send me your email address at [email protected] and I will email you a photo of my son and I.

Thanks Bob will do.

[Jambalaia32]

What are we?

Hello,

Here is a thread, that has started at rootsweb.

Rootsweb DNA list

My comments are there also.

Regards,
Costa

Exactly what is ethnic identity? Maybe a mixed person ain't got a set identity.Jews are from all the tribes of earth I though.Everyone has a little admixture.Your haplogroup must mean something or else why have one?I don't know if you get to see people in your haplogroup ,but they tend to look alike -I guess they from a little tribe of their own.

[Zaru]

I hadnt seen anyone use the term Saracen since Primary School days in London, England. In the 60s, in classrooms, we had to listen to BBC broadcast stories about the Crusades. It is a European Christian term that refers to someone who isnt a descendant of Sarah. lol. It is pejorative and its kind of obsolete now, since we know the Jews dont have a defining mtdna marker. I mean, which mtdna subclade do the Ash, Sephardi and Oriental Jews and Europeans share that is missing among the Arabs/ Middle Easterners?

Actually, Saracen is the preferred term in Sicily. I Saraceni is always employed, but in the historical sense as the sicilians refer to themselves as sicilians. There also seems to be confusion within academia as to who the conquerors were that brought the Muslim religion to Spain and then into N. Africa, then to Sicily (The Kingdom of the Two Sicilies). Were they Saracens, Moors,Berbers,or Arabs? Were the Moors actually from Mauretania? The Berbers seem to be the only indigenous people of N. Africa, who in some records, were originally fair skinned and fair haired-ALL of the Berbers that I now know are autosomally no different than the traditionally depicted Moor of swarthy skin and dark features. It's a confusing lot-has any dna testing been conducted to differentiate these groups?

[Clochaire]

Amusing

Jack, there used to be an Italian-Hebrew dialect similar to Ladino ...

To follow up a message I left you earlier:

2. "Le mie prigione" I think this means "Ask me about it"--but based on Spanish lessons I took a century or so ago, rather than clear recollection of that night. Could be example of Hebrew influenced dialect.

3. "Silvio Pellico". I gotta admit, I have NO idea of the significance of this.

Hope this helps, and best of luck.

Jack

I'm sure your knowledge of Italian has already allowed you to piece this together, Vinnie. It seems that my recollection of the conversation surrounding these points is imperfect.

But the following link provided some clarity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silvio_Pellico

My mates and I had tipped a few back before visiting Ruffalo's, but I never had the impression she was thinking of calling the guards on us!


Jack

[Clochaire]

. . . and Alberobello is in Puglia, NOT Calabria . . .

Don't know if that is significant. Maybe her roots go further into Calabria.

Not that they're far apart geographically, but I realize the apparent discrepancy.

[jan]

My roots stretch the globe. I'm American. I'm the world.

[PDHOTLEN]

new ethnicities?

If ethnicity has as much or more to do with philosophical world view as genetic inheritance, then the USA has generated its own ethnicities; e.g. Old South vs. Yankees vs. Westerners/Alaskans, et al. And that is just among "whites."

[Deirwha]

New Ethnicity

If ethnicity has as much or more to do with philosophical world view as genetic inheritance, then the USA has generated its own ethnicities; e.g. Old South vs. Yankees vs. Westerners/Alaskans, et al. And that is just among "whites."

I agree with you PDHOTLEN, and you have put your finger on the key to "ethnicity" ... what a person or a group of people believe about him/themselves, not necessarily what is technically accurate. The DNA evidence has taught me to ask no longer, Who am I, but rather From where did I come when.

[Deirwha]

New Ethnicity

If ethnicity has as much or more to do with philosophical world view as genetic inheritance, then the USA has generated its own ethnicities; e.g. Old South vs. Yankees vs. Westerners/Alaskans, et al. And that is just among "whites."

I agree with you PDHOTLEN, and you have put your finger on the key to "ethnicity" ... what a person or a group of people believe about him/themselves, not necessarily what is technically accurate. The DNA evidence has taught me to ask no longer, Who am I, but rather From which wheres did I come during what time period.