Ethnic Identity --- philisophical question

[bob_chasm]

Passing remark

...Sure my line could possibly be of Jewish or Arab/Saracen background but it is just not as likely based on the history of Calabria and my own matches.

I hadnt seen anyone use the term Saracen since Primary School days in London, England. In the 60s, in classrooms, we had to listen to BBC broadcast stories about the Crusades. It is a European Christian term that refers to someone who isnt a descendant of Sarah. lol. It is pejorative and its kind of obsolete now, since we know the Jews dont have a defining mtdna marker. I mean, which mtdna subclade do the Ash, Sephardi and Oriental Jews and Europeans share that is missing among the Arabs/ Middle Easterners?

[rainbow]

I hadnt seen anyone use the term Saracen since Primary School days in London, England. In the 60s, in classrooms, we had to listen to BBC broadcast stories about the Crusades. It is a European Christian term that refers to someone who isnt a descendant of Sarah. lol. It is pejorative and its kind of obsolete now, since we know the Jews dont have a defining mtdna marker. I mean, which mtdna subclade do the Ash, Sephardi and Oriental Jews and Europeans share that is missing among the Arabs/ Middle Easterners?

I didn't know that it was a negative word in the UK.
I'm from the US and I always thought 'Saracen' meant one of those fancy-dressed, dashing, swashbuckling, sword-wearing men of the middle east area. I had a romanticized view, not a negative one. I thought Saracen was also probably a romantized version of the word assassin.

It would be cool if J Man's Italian ancestor from Calabria was descended from a man from Greece. What if the man from Greece was from the Middle East?

[bob_chasm]

Saracen

I didn't know that it was a negative word in the UK.
I'm from the US and I always thought 'Saracen' meant one of those fancy-dressed, dashing, swashbuckling, sword-wearing men of the middle east area. I had a romanticized view, not a negative one. I thought Saracen was also probably a romantized version of the word assassin.

It would be cool if J Man's Italian ancestor from Calabria was descended from a man from Greece. What if the man from Greece was from the Middle East?

I hope we are not wandering too far off topic here.

Saracen in my opinion is like calling a Native American 'Red Indian' or Muslims calling Christians 'Cross worshippers'. These are not flattering terms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Samsam22

SAMSAM 22 Studied Islamic archeology, Egyptian archeology and history at Cairo University and Anthropology and middle eastern studies in Europe.


Saracens, Worshippers of the cross, Turks, Franks, Crusaders, Frinja

the term Saracens was used by European crusaders in referring to Muslims. It is an out of date term which belongs to European Dark Ages and old way of thinking of specifying others. Muslims called the crusaders " worshippers of the cross" ( Abadat al-Salib ). It is not proper to use such terms in writing in modern times. Muslims were also called "Turks" by the Crusaders which is also not correct and should not be used in modern writing. Saracens, Turks and such terms are broad and do not specify. As for the term "Crusaders" ( Arabic: Al-Salibiyoon ), During the crusade era Muslims did not use the word Crusaders but used the word "Frinja" which means Franks.

Also a good read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saracen

Eusebius and Epiphanius Scholasticus in their Christian histories places Saracens east of the Gulf of Aqaba but beyond the Roman province of Arabia and mention them as Ishmaelites through Kedar; thus, they are outside the promise given to Abraham and his descendants through Isaac and also beyond a privileged place in the family of nations or divine dispensation.[10][8] They were viewed as pagans and polytheists in ancient times and in later Christian times became associated with cruel tyrants from early Christian history such as: Herod the Great, Herod Antipas and Agrippa I.[8] Christian writings viewed them as heretics who had to be brought into the Orthodox fold by Origen.[8] To the Christian Saint Jerome the Arabs, who were also considered in Christian theology as Ishmaelites, are also by definition Saracens; pagan tent-dwelling raiders of the lands on the eastern fringes of the Roman empire.[8] The term saracen carried the connotation of people living on the fringes of settled society, living off raids on towns and villages and became equated with both the "tent-dwelling" Bedouin as well as sedentary Arabs.[8] Church writers of the period commonly describe Saracen raids on monasteries and their killing of monks.[8] The term and the negative image of Saracens was in popular usage in both the Greek east as well as the Latin west through the Middle Ages.[8] With the rise of Islam in the seventh century and its strong association with Arabs, tied the term closely with not just race and culture, but religion as well.[8] The rise of the Arab Empire and the ensuing hostility with the Byzantine Empire saw itself expressed as conflict between Islam and Christianity and the association of the term with Islam was further accentuated both during and after the Crusades.[8]

John of Damascus, a resident of the Caliphate's capital city, described the Saracens in the early 8th century as:

There is also the people-deceiving cult (threskeia) of the Ishmaelites, the forerunner of the Antichrist, which prevails until now. It derives from Ishmael, who was born to Abraham from Hagar, wherefore they are called Hagarenes and Ishmaelites. And they call them Saracens, inasmuch as they were sent away empty-handed by Sarah (ek tes Sarras kenous); for it was said to the angel by Hagar: "Sarah has sent me away empty-handed" (cf. Genesis xxi. 10, 14). These, then, were idolaters and worshippers of the morning star and Aphrodite whom in fact they called Akbar (Chabar) in their own language, which means "great". So until the times of Heraclius they were plain idolaters. From that time till now a false prophet appeared among them, surnamed Muhammad (Mamed), who, having happened upon the Old and the New Testament and apparently having conversed, in like manner, with an Arian monk, put together his own heresy. And after ingratiating himself with the people by a pretence of piety, he spread rumours of a scripture (graphe) brought down to him from heaven. So, having drafted some ludicrous doctrines in his book, he handed over to them this form of worship (to sebas).[11]
In this extract, John might actually have been referring to Allat, a pre-Islamic goddess equated with Aphrodite.

[J Man]

I hadnt seen anyone use the term Saracen since Primary School days in London, England. In the 60s, in classrooms, we had to listen to BBC broadcast stories about the Crusades. It is a European Christian term that refers to someone who isnt a descendant of Sarah. lol. It is pejorative and its kind of obsolete now, since we know the Jews dont have a defining mtdna marker. I mean, which mtdna subclade do the Ash, Sephardi and Oriental Jews and Europeans share that is missing among the Arabs/ Middle Easterners?

I am sorry if I offended you in any way Bob. I was unaware that the word Saracen carried a negative connotation these days. I though that it just referred to an Islamic Arabic culture. No offense intended.

[J Man]

I didn't know that it was a negative word in the UK.
I'm from the US and I always thought 'Saracen' meant one of those fancy-dressed, dashing, swashbuckling, sword-wearing men of the middle east area. I had a romanticized view, not a negative one. I thought Saracen was also probably a romantized version of the word assassin.

It would be cool if J Man's Italian ancestor from Calabria was descended from a man from Greece. What if the man from Greece was from the Middle East?

I think that it would be cool if my ancestor was originally from Greece as well. I have no problem with my ancestor being from the Middle East also it just does not seem as likely to me thats all.

[vinnie]

I am sorry if I offended you in any way Bob. I was unaware that the word Saracen carried a negative connotation these days. I though that it just referred to an Islamic Arabic culture. No offense intended.

I learned this word as a child as the name of the specific Arab Muslims who invaded Sicily, and it had no negative connotations to the best of my knowledge. The Italian family name "Sara(n)ceni" may indicate descendancy from them.

[PDHOTLEN]

Saladin

I've seen Saladin (spelling?), the great nemesis of the crusaders, being referred to as a Saracen, and also as being a Kurd. I just tossed this in the pot for flavoring.

[bob_chasm]

specific Arab Muslims

PDHOLTEN, thankyour for the example of a SARACEN that wasnt an ARAB and didnt invade Sicily.

[rainbow]

To me, none of the words have any negative connotation. I never heard of 'cross worshippers' before, but that doesn't sound offensive to me at all, just descriptive. From an observers point of view, if I had never seen a Christian before, and then suddenly there were hordes of men arriving with flags that had crosses on them, and they are all wearing and carrying crosses, then I'd also call them 'cross worshippers', because that is what it looks like.

I don't see anything wrong with the term 'red indian'. I know that the term is used in England. I never heard the term in the US. It was so the English could explain which indian they were talking about, an American Indian instead of an Indian Indian, since England pretty much owned India for a while and the word Indian was for people from India. To me it's just an added syllable to differentiate. Don't know why it was 'red', instead of 'blue' or 'green'.

I don't really see a difference between Arab and Turk and Kurd, etc.
Saracen can describe anyone from that general area.

I've been called the generic word of 'German', by non-white people. And I'd say I have Scottish, English, etc. and they'd say, "whatever. it's all the same". It's a generic term for anyone who seems European. When I was in the grocery store I was told that I look European by someone who I think was from the Asia region (I'm clueless of where she was originally from specifically, I didn't ask.), and she went on to say that I have European eyes and she asked if I was from here, I said I was from here, and she said I looked like people from European countries, so I asked her what country she thought I looked like I was from, and she said, "Pennsylvania". And I said that yes I do have ancestors from Pennsylvania. She was very nice and I didn't feel like pointing out anything (arguing), so I left it at that, and told her that my mom was from Pennsylvania. And she smiled.
For the record, I probably wouldn't know what country she was from if she told me, because I don't know every one. I know that Korea and Japan are off the China coast, but that's pretty much it. I think she was from southasia, and I don't know all the names and the difference between those.

[bob_chasm]

embarrassing

The last thing I want to do is embarrass my J brothers, J Man and vinnie. I made a casual observation. I did'nt feel J Man had to apologize. If I presented anything of value, then I am happy I could help. Otherwise, please ignore it.

[vinnie]

PDHOLTEN, thankyour for the example of a SARACEN that wasnt an ARAB and didnt invade Sicily.

Bob, in 14 years of working with Arab and Muslim students, I've had some pretty honest conversations about a lot of topics, and not once has this term seemed to offend in talking about Sicilian history with them. Likewise, I've used the term in the same context with colleagues in Middle Eastern and Central Asian studies who have never alerted me to a perjorative meaning for this term - and in neither case do I attibute this to them simply being polite and not wanting to offend me by correcting me - they were all pretty blunt in their opinions.

Frankly, I'm disappointed by what seems to me to be increasing personal attacks in the forum in general, people getting easily offended, not giving others the benefit of the doubt, not really "hearing" what the other person is saying, etc. I've been doing a lot in my circles of influence to get more people interesting in genetic genealogy, but I'm starting to have second thoughts if this is the atmosphere they're going to be exposed to. We're all sincerely ignorant of a lot of things, and if I took offense at everything I've been subjected to as an Italian/Sicilian American, there aren't too many people I'd be talking to at this point.

[J Man]

The last thing I want to do is embarrass my J brothers, J Man and vinnie. I made a casual observation. I did'nt feel J Man had to apologize. If I presented anything of value, then I am happy I could help. Otherwise, please ignore it.

It's all good Bob. Don't worry about it.

[vinnie]

Bob,

I was really surprised by someone else's reply to me in another thread last week (which I didn't reply to just to maintain peace in the forum), and I've read some unnecessarily unkind words in some other posts lately, so I guess I finally got defensive myself and misinterpreted yours to me. Sorry! I hope we can continue to banter back and forth about DNA - I do appreciate your input.

Vinnie

[rainbow]

Wow I didn't know there was tension. I just thought it was breezy conversation. If I offended anyone then I'm sorry.

About Bob's perception of Saracen as being perjorative...he went to school in England, so maybe the teachers he had growing up said the word with a sneer or in a negative manner because the teacher(s) had a negative opinion of saracen, and that gave the students the strong impression that it was a perjorative. I've heard of English people saying the word "Irish" and "French" in a perjorative/negative way, just as I've heard Americans say "Mexican" or "black" or "Jewish". That doesn't mean the word itself it perjorative, but it's the attitude of the person saying the word that makes it seem like a bad/negative word to, especially to kids who have never heard it before.

Bob's teacher(s) sound as if they were anti-Saracen.
No offense intended.

[Maria_W]

Happens to mixed blood also....

It happens to me as a mixed blood person..... Since my heritage is European and Amerindian, I can only speak of those heritages and only from my experience....I do not look Amerindian, my skin is light, I have blue eyes, even my hair is a light to medium brown.. but the dna is there I have had alot of non Amerindian people ask me if I was joking when I told them about my heritage. They seemed offended...One of them even told me it would be best if I didn't tell people... I am very proud of who I am!

Maria