Ethnic Identity --- philisophical question

[purple flowers]

I think it is different from individual to individual. For example, to a J1+cmh or J2a1* Orthodox Jewish Cohen in the USA, his y dna genetic identity maybe more telling than the fact that he comes from America.

In my personal case, I have only one 12/12 marker match. It happens to be with an Italian. I dont think this tells you or me anything about me.
bob

except for the fact that chances are you or your daddy and all his brothers could probably pass as Italians.. right ? and do you have an italian name?

[bob_chasm]

passing for an Italian

except for the fact that chances are you or your daddy and all his brothers could probably pass as Italians.. right ? and do you have an italian name?

My son might pass for an Italian (since my wife is European), but not me. I have been mistaken for Lebanese or Armenean but never European. I am a J2a1* like many middle eastern, Jewish, Italian, Samaritan and Cohen men etc. However, my only 12/12 match is an Italian with the last name Rossi. My Arab Muslim last name, Nakawi, suggests I am a descendant of prophet Muhammad's grandson. Myth of origin suggests my ancestor moved to India from the middle east in the 1200s. We have written land ownership records and family titles from India dating back to the 1600s, but no perfect 12/12 matches with Hindus or Muslims from that region.

My question is, do you think Mr Rossi could pass for a middle eastern Muslim who went to Italy during the Islamic expansion in the 7th century?

[vinnie]

Bob, "Rossi" and its variants can be an indication of Italian-Jewish heritage. I haven't heard of it being linked to those Italians of Arabic/Muslim heritage, but anything's possible.

[bob_chasm]

Italian Jewish heritage

Bob, "Rossi" and its variants can be an indication of Italian-Jewish heritage. I haven't heard of it being linked to those Italians of Arabic/Muslim heritage, but anything's possible.

Vinnie, here are some possibilities:

1. The prophet Muhammad's grandson was closely related to the ancestors of Jewish Italian Rossi family.

2. Rossi was the descendant of Arabs who ended up in Italy during the Arab expansion.

3. Nakawi is the descendant of a Jewish convert to Islam, who adopted the prophet Muhammad's clan name.

4. Nakawi and Rossi only share a neolithic ancestor that predates modern religions. Any similarities in haplotype are the consequence of convergence. The SNP that separates them hasnt been discovered yet. The more closely related populations from which they descend in Europe and India/ Middle East respectively, have not been discovered yet.

[vinnie]

Bob, do you know where in Italy your match traces his ancestry? It's my understanding that if he's from the south (Calabria, Puglia, Sicily, etc.) then there's more of a chance historically of his being linked to the Arab expansion. But if he's from around Rome or further north, then there's a greater chance of him being of Jewish ancestry. And remember that your connection with him could predate both Arabs and Jews as people groups. How many markers do you have to compare with him? If only 12, that's not much to go on. If you haven't yet, I suggest that you both join a project and upgrade to 67, although you may want to wait for the next time discounts are offered. By the way, I've "passed" for Lebanese, Syrian, Alexandrian Egyptian, Jewish, Greek, and Hispanic, in addition to Italian! Given my genetic mix from just the four lines I've tested, I now know why...I'm just a Mediterranean mix.

[Clochaire]

. . . It's my understanding that if he's from the south (Calabria, Puglia, Sicily, etc.) then there's more of a chance historically of his being linked to the Arab expansion. But if he's from around Rome or further north, then there's a greater chance of him being of Jewish ancestry.

Just a punter here, but I met a charming old Calabrian matron a week or so ago. She explained to me in some depth regarding beauties of the landscape and notable features of the local history and culture.

She explained to me that one of the significant linguistic influences on the Calabrian dialect was HEBREW.

I thought that this was unusual, because my understanding of the Jewish Diaspora linguistic legacy was that most Jewish regional dialects, patois or what-have-you, such as Ladino and Yiddish, are more closely related to the native language of the host country. And that the Jewish influences on the host-country languange may not be very pervasive overall, even if there are certain specialized argots where it is.

So I asked several times if I understood her correctly, that she really intended to say that Hebrew was a significant linguistic influence in Calabria. And she heartily assured me that it is.

Jack

[vinnie]

Jack, there used to be an Italian-Hebrew dialect similar to Ladino - can't remember the name of it - but I believe it's basically dead now. Does this woman actually know of a specific dialect like this, or was she speaking of Calabrian in general? It's not uncommon in cases of prolonged language contact situations for the indigenous language to borrow vocabulary from a language new to its geographical area and for the two to even begin creolization - English is a great example.

A grammatical puzzle for me is the Italian way of expressing "really?". In standard Italian, it's "da vero", literally "of/from true", and in southern it's "per da vero", literally "for of/for from true". I think Italian is unique in this construction among the Romance languages - to use a preposition (or two!) to express this idea (cf. French "C'est vrai?" = "This is true?"). I can't help thinking of the Hebrew for the same - "b'emet" literally "in truth". Both languages use a preposition before the adjective or noun, with the southern using an additional preposition that also begins with a bilabial stop, although it's voiced in Hebrew (b) and unvoiced in Italian (p). So I wonder if the southerners adopted the Hebrew "b" in the form of "per" because they analyzed "da vero" as a single grammatical/semantic constituent, rather than as two separate words. It just doesn't make sense to have two adjacent prepositions in a construction like this.

BTW, after reviewing my response to Bob, I don't mean to imply that southern Italians can't have ancient Hebrew/Jewish ancestry, but to the best of my knowledge, there's more of chance for Arabic/Muslim ancestry in the south than there is in the north because the Arabs were in much greater numbers and for a longer period of time there than in the north. Sicilian is well known for the Arabic influence in the language, culture, and food.

[bob_chasm]

Bob, do you know where in Italy your match traces his ancestry? It's my understanding that if he's from the south (Calabria, Puglia, Sicily, etc.) then there's more of a chance historically of his being linked to the Arab expansion. But if he's from around Rome or further north, then there's a greater chance of him being of Jewish ancestry. And remember that your connection with him could predate both Arabs and Jews as people groups. How many markers do you have to compare with him? If only 12, that's not much to go on. If you haven't yet, I suggest that you both join a project and upgrade to 67, although you may want to wait for the next time discounts are offered. By the way, I've "passed" for Lebanese, Syrian, Alexandrian Egyptian, Jewish, Greek, and Hispanic, in addition to Italian! Given my genetic mix from just the four lines I've tested, I now know why...I'm just a Mediterranean mix.

I originally tested for 67 markers and later had a backbone SNP test done to confirm I belong to haplogroup J2. Unfortunately, Mr. Rossi has only tested for 12 markers. I emailed him once, with the hope he would test for more. I never received a reply. He also has not joined the Haplogroup J project. So, I am afraid I dont know much about Mr. Rossi beyond his name on the email address.

You are right, 12 for 12 is not much to go on, but this is the only 12 for 12 match I have. The next closest match is for 11/12 markers, with someone who is 1 of 40 from Moldova. He is an Ashkenazi. From India there is a 1 of 1000 match at this level.

[vinnie]

Bob, you're in the same boat as I with regard to your only 12 marker match. However, if you haven't seen this yet, read my reply to another forum question at

http://forums.familytreedna.com/showthread.php?t=6933&page=2

I think we've come to a consensus in this forum that 12 marker matches ain't always what they're cracked up to be.

[Deirwha]

marker tests

Where does a 37 marker test place you in the historical stream? As in, say, 3-8 genetic differences on a 37 marker? And which is more telling, a 3-6 genetic difference on a 37 marker or membership in the same clade despite a greater genetic difference? Not one person who is in my sub clade group is in my 37 marker matches. The general advice I get on that is maybe the 37 marker matches have not tested yet. I probably have to be told several times to understand this, but is there a time oriented hierarchy to 12 marker, 37 marker, 67 marker? How do we know which chicken came first?

[purple flowers]

My son might pass for an Italian (since my wife is European), but not me. I have been mistaken for Lebanese or Armenean but never European. I am a J2a1* like many middle eastern, Jewish, Italian, Samaritan and Cohen men etc. However, my only 12/12 match is an Italian with the last name Rossi. My Arab Muslim last name, Nakawi, suggests I am a descendant of prophet Muhammad's grandson. Myth of origin suggests my ancestor moved to India from the middle east in the 1200s. We have written land ownership records and family titles from India dating back to the 1600s, but no perfect 12/12 matches with Hindus or Muslims from that region.

My question is, do you think Mr Rossi could pass for a middle eastern Muslim who went to Italy during the Islamic expansion in the 7th century?

he will look like any of your line ranges when crossed with the same mtdna mother lines and that would include the same ranges as all Cohen Jews also.
so yes he will look similar to you and your uncles and fathers and grandfathers, all have the same ranges of type and all of those of Cohen Jewish males also since it is common knowledge that many many Jews were taken to Rome also. .. so depending on what the mothers brought to the gene mix with her mtdna/type.

[rivergirl]

1) Sorry, but I do not agree with your comments - there are many many FTDNA forum members,that are not aware of the rootsweb list - people from countries outside of the U.S.And it would be to their benefit to find out about the rootsweb list.

CNT, I can assure you that Rootsweb mailing lists and forums are known and used by people from countries outside the US. We even have mailing lists for our non US countries and regions.

[vinnie]

Where does a 37 marker test place you in the historical stream? As in, say, 3-8 genetic differences on a 37 marker? And which is more telling, a 3-6 genetic difference on a 37 marker or membership in the same clade despite a greater genetic difference? Not one person who is in my sub clade group is in my 37 marker matches. The general advice I get on that is maybe the 37 marker matches have not tested yet. I probably have to be told several times to understand this, but is there a time oriented hierarchy to 12 marker, 37 marker, 67 marker? How do we know which chicken came first?

Deirwha, I was waiting for someone else to answer your questions because I too would like to know from where the hierarchy comes. As for your other question, subclade takes preference over haplotype. If someone's in a different snp-confirmed subclade, all the haplotype similiarity means is that there's been convergence between you and the other person. However, if the other person's subclade is unknown, you could contact them to see if they're either snp-confrimed negative for the snp you're positive for, or perhaps they haven't had that snp tested yet. So some of those 37 marker matches could be in your subclade, but you and they don't know it yet.

[J Man]

My paternal line is from Calabria and I really don't think that I have any Jewish or Arab/Saracen ancestry. Based on my matches I think that my ancestor either came during the Neolithic period or perhaps later with Bronze age or Greek expansion to Calabria.

Sure my line could possibly be of Jewish or Arab/Saracen background but it is just not as likely based on the history of Calabria and my own matches.

[bob_chasm]

Greek expansion

My paternal line is from Calabria and I really don't think that I have any Jewish or Arab/Saracen ancestry. Based on my matches I think that my ancestor either came during the Neolithic period or perhaps later with Bronze age or Greek expansion to Calabria.

Sure my line could possibly be of Jewish or Arab/Saracen background but it is just not as likely based on the history of Calabria and my own matches.

J Man, how about your 12/12 and 11/12 matches, which countries have the highest densities for people with your haplotype?

I was under the impression that J2 subclade M12 and M92 were closely implicated in Neolithic and the Greek expansion in Europe.