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My R1a1* origin and migration - Ostrogoths to England?

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  • My R1a1* origin and migration - Ostrogoths to England?

    I am a newbie, so please be patient. FTDNA says I am a confirmed R1a1*. I am testing for the new 2008 sub-clades "d' and "e", but the results are not yet available.

    I found a very interesting webpage at
    http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....lo_r1a_two.htm.
    The article describes various haplotypes within haplogroup R1a.

    I do not exactly match any of the markers listed, but am one off (in different places) from two of them:

    DYS.......: 19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b
    Mine......: 15 13 29 26 10 11 13 11 14
    type #16: 15 13 29 25 10 11 13 11 14
    type #25: 16 13 29 26 10 11 13 11 14

    The webpage gives no clear origin for type #16, but suggests that type #25 is of Gothic, Herul, or Rugian origin, which was carried with a migration of Suevi and/or Saxons into England. Through genealogical research, I have found an ancestor 6 generations back in Yorkshire, England.

    The geographic pattern of my matches at yhrd.org (above data plus DYS439=11) seems to concentrate on the south Baltic shore in what is now northern Poland and eastern Germany. The matches fan out to the east towards Russia and to the south towards an area from Ukraine to Macedonia. My cursory research at wikipedia.org suggests these paths co-inicide with Ostrogothic and Varangian migrations.

    The intersection of these observations seems to suggest an Ostrogothic origin, then migration through Suevi and/or Saxons into England. Is this reasonable, or am I just "blowing smoke"?

    Thank you all in advance for any insight you can share.

  • #2
    quick look at mine (R1a1)

    I'm not an exact match to any of them, but come close to #12 & #15.

    I'm eagerly awaiting my test results that are due around June 25th (P98 & PK5).

    R1a1 & U5b2

    Comment


    • #3
      & another

      I'm just as close to #16. But none are closer than 2 away, at least at a superficial glance.

      It looks like there were several in-migrations to Norway of R1a. Or they were already blended when they got there.

      Comment


      • #4
        charting it (partially)

        OK. Here's a sample comparison from the link given a few messages back:

        location: 19 389i 389ii 390 391 392 393 385a 385b

        mine: 17 13 31 24 10 11 13 11 14

        Type 16: 15 13 29 25 10 11 13 11 14

        Type 15: 15 12 - 24 11 11 13 - -

        Type 12: 15 13 31 25 10 11 13 11 14

        Maybe I'm a new type?

        I had them lined up when I typed them in. I should have used tabs.
        Last edited by PDHOTLEN; 9 June 2008, 12:24 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          on the one hand...

          That "17" at location 19 bothers me. The only two types with it (on that link) are Slavic. But the rest of my alleles look pretty much Scandinavian. On the one hand, maybe my type is a transition between Slavic & Scandinavian. On the other hand, what about the Saami? There is a chunk of R1a1 in the Saami pie chart. They were the original inhabitants of the Scandinavian Peninsula, I think. And my line seems to be from the rugged western region, where descendants of some Saami might have hung on. So what does Saami R1a look like?

          R1a1 & U5b2

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by PDHOTLEN
            That "17" at location 19 bothers me. The only two types with it (on that link) are Slavic. But the rest of my alleles look pretty much Scandinavian. On the one hand, maybe my type is a transition between Slavic & Scandinavian. On the other hand, what about the Saami? There is a chunk of R1a1 in the Saami pie chart. They were the original inhabitants of the Scandinavian Peninsula, I think. And my line seems to be from the rugged western region, where descendants of some Saami might have hung on. So what does Saami R1a look like?

            R1a1 & U5b2
            The earliest link I know of between Saami and England is that someone who worked for King Alfred of England taxed the Saami in the 9th century.

            http://209.85.215.104/search?q=cache...lnk&cd=1&gl=us

            Somebody had to venture back and forth to collect (or deliver?) all that tax (reindeer), so there is the chance that some non-Saami ydna got into the Saami population, and vice versa.
            Last edited by rainbow; 9 June 2008, 12:53 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              ostro-Goths

              But the Goths came from Sweden to the Baltic coats. So they must
              have R 1b. What about the dna-analyse of the ancient Germanic
              tribes?

              Comment


              • #8
                sailors can confuse the DNA record

                There will probably be much confusion as more and more Y-DNA is revealed; due to sailors, soldiers, merchants and tourists leaving progeny at ports of call.

                Comment


                • #9
                  another hypothesis for mine

                  It's too bad the link referred to doesn't show all the types of R1a:

                  http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....lo_r1a_two.htm

                  But since my type doesn't seem to be shown, and since the "17" at locus 19 looks ancestral or more closely related to R1a from around the point of origin (Ukraine?), I can visualize another scernario.

                  My "17" clan fled from the Hun invaders (like the Alans), but went to Norway, instead of Iberia. Since the best farm lands were already taken, on the Scandinavian peninsula, my clan ended up in Telemark and the fjord country.

                  R1a1 & U5b2

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Are there any references to tie particular tribes to R1a1?

                    Thanks to all who have responded so far.

                    I have seen a post somewhere in another thread, plus a post in this thread, which indicate that certain Scandinavian and Germanic tribes are R1b. Haganus says that Goths should be R1b. How is this known? Are there studies or technical papers which I can look up?

                    So which tribes are associated with R1a on the south Baltic coast? The Heruli? The Rugians? The Vagoths? The Vandals? Is there a tie-in to other Baltic peoples like Lithuanians and Estonians? Or have such studies not been done for R1a? (It looks like there has been a lot of work on R1b: I see stuff all over the forum on them; is R1a lacking in research?)

                    I thank anyone who can give me pointers.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      That's what I was wondering

                      R1a1 seems to be diffused among several former tribes. They must have spread northward after the LGM, integrating with other haplogroups.

                      R1a1* & U5b2

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        pie chart for Baltics

                        There is only one pie chart superimposed on the Baltics (WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf), which is confusing considering the different ethnic groups there. The Estonians belong to the Finnish language group, while Latvia and Lithuania speak the Baltic sub-group of Slavic. Furthermore, there are a lot of naturalized Russians from the Soviet era, especially in Latvia.

                        It looks like about 30% is R1a1; 40% N; 15% I; and little slivers for a few others, including R1b.

                        Poland shows a bit over 50% for R1a; and European Russia shows a bit less than 50% for R1a.

                        R1a1* & U5b2

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          R1b1b2h1 versus R1a1*

                          I was reading on other threads, and find that R1b1b2h1 has 8 levels of classification, while my R1a1* has only 5 levels. In addition, there are discussions going down to individual tribes and locations within a country, for the deep levels. What gives? Is it that research is further along for R1b because it is associated with western Europeans, or is it a population distribution issue, such that there are simply fewer levels of R1a types? Thank you in advance as always.

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