Help reconciling results and tradition?...

[Clem2432]

I need help reconciling my suggested haplotype and where my family has traditionally thought it came from.

my results are:

393
13

390
24

19*
14

391
11

385a
11

385b
14

426
12

388
12

439
12

389-1
13

392
14

389-2
30

And my suggested Haplotype is R1b, which seems to be considered the 'Celtic' haplotype by many.

I also matched 12/12 with a couple of people with what most would consider 'Irish/Scottish' surnames.

Now, my family has traditionally thought it originated from Sweden / Finland. I would expect to fit into the 'Viking' haplotype.

Is there any chance that significant R1b's are found in Scandinavia? Or, does this point to a possible mistake in the family genealogy?

Or, is it inconclusive in this respect?

Thanks

[bob_allison]

Re: Help reconciling results and tradition?...

Your results and family tradition may not be incompatible.

Imagine your family tree written out back 25 generations, your father and mother above you and their fathers and mothers above them. There would be over 33 million names on the top row. Now many of these people would be duplicated or be ancestors of others on that row but it is still a lot of people.

Your Y-DNA is inherited from just one person on the top row - the man on the extreme left. All the others have no bearing on it whatsoever.

So it would be possible for you to be over 99.999% Viking but if that one man was not then it would not show up in your Y-DNA.

[AngelaC]

Re: Help reconciling results and tradition?...

Originally posted by Clem2432
I need help reconciling my suggested haplotype and where my family has traditionally thought it came from.

And my suggested Haplotype is R1b, which seems to be considered the 'Celtic' haplotype by many.

I also matched 12/12 with a couple of people with what most would consider 'Irish/Scottish' surnames.

Now, my family has traditionally thought it originated from Sweden / Finland. I would expect to fit into the 'Viking' haplotype.

Is there any chance that significant R1b's are found in Scandinavia? Or, does this point to a possible mistake in the family genealogy?

Or, is it inconclusive in this respect?

Thanks

Hi,
Bob is correct when he says that your results and family tradition may not be incompatible.

The answer to your question "Is there any chance that significant R1b's are found in Scandinavia?" is yes.

I know that R1b is touted as the "celtic" haplogroup - because it is present in up to 90% of the population in "celtic" areas, and that R1a is touted as the "viking" group as - percentages of R1a in western Europe are highest in Scandanavian populations. (in actuality percentages of R1a are highest in eastern europe)

However, on an individual basis, being R1a or R1b doesn't actually tell you anything conclusive about the ancestry of your paternal ancestor.

To put things into perspective, - in Norway only 34% of the population is actually R1a. The percentage of the population that are in R1b is almost the same (30%).

So a result of R1b from an ancestor in Sweden or Finland isn't a problem at all.


Angela.

[Clem2432]

Re: Re: Help reconciling results and tradition?...

Thanks for the responses.

Angela, where did you find the percentage breakdowns of haplotypes in different regions?

Thanks again.

[AngelaC]

Re: Re: Re: Help reconciling results and tradition?...

Originally posted by Clem2432
Thanks for the responses.

Angela, where did you find the percentage breakdowns of haplotypes in different regions?

Thanks again.

Hi,

Most of my figures are from the 2003 "y chromosome census of the British isles". The url for the paper in the FT DNA library is as follows:
http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/capelli2_CB.pdf

The figures are in table one of the paper.
Just so you know how to interpret the haplotype categories they have in the paper, -
AMH+1 is a subdivision of R1b,
R1xR1a1 is all haplotypes in R except R1a1 (ie. it includes R1b)
3.65+1 is a subdivision of R1a

Incidentally, AMH stand for the "Altlantic modal haplotype". The Atlantic modal haplotype is based on 6 of the DYS markers.

DYS19 =14
DYS388 =12
DYS390 =24
DYS391 =11
DYS392 =13 (yours is 14)
DYS393 =13

AMH+1 basically means the atlantic modal haplotype, and all similar haplotypes that differ from it by only 1. Your haplotype will be within the AMH+1 grouping I believe (you have just one difference).

The "Atlantic modal Haplotype" was first described in a previous paper,

http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/full/98/9/5078

Angela.

[jvance_elliott]

Re: Re: Re: Help reconciling results and tradition?...

Originally posted by Clem2432
Thanks for the responses.

Angela, where did you find the percentage breakdowns of haplotypes in different regions?

Thanks again.

Log onto http://www.racearchives.com/calc/. Search the menu under "Y Chromosome Analysis" for "Haplogroup Frequency in 72 Eurasian Populations". Click on "profile".

On the resulting web page, you will find a dropdown that allows you to select a particular nationality, and then see the breakdown by haplogroup. The only caveat is that the haplogroup names use the old format (e.g., R1b is hg1, I is hg2, and R1a is hg3). Otherwise, this is an excellent resource for learning the haplogroup composition of any major Eurasian group. Let me note also that the "Distance Calculator" option will allow you to see which groups are closest to your selected group in terms of Y-DNA composition.

[Clem2432]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Help reconciling results and tradition?...

Great. Thanks for the info.

According to that site, there seams to be significant R1b [Hg1] (25% - 40%) populations in scandinavian areas.

So, being R1b doesn't conflict with family history. We have, what we considered to be, pretty solid documentation on our male lineage from Sweden / Finland. But, seeing R1b classified by many as the 'Celtic' haplotype just made me wonder.