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  • Celtic Mtdna

    Is there any mtdna haplogroup that is associated with the celts?

  • #2
    Well, my own type, mtDNA K with 16048A, is clearly associated with Ireland, but it was there long before Ireland was Celtic. Ireland didn't actually get an influx of Celtic people when it adopted Celtic language and culture.

    I guess I'm not answering your question.

    Jim

    Comment


    • #3
      I appreciate the reply. Im expecting my mtdna results within a week or so and Im trying to gather a little info about the different groups so I can understand. Are there any other groups that are associated with specific areas?

      Comment


      • #4
        Western Europe (and eastern too) looks remarkably alike in terms of frequency of mtdna haplogroups, meaning that the same haplogroups (H,U5,K,T,J) are spread over the whole continent. As Jim was saying, sometimes there are specific mutations within a haplogroup that seem to be more concentrated in specific areas, but that is not always the case.

        cacio

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by GFERRILL
          Is there any mtdna haplogroup that is associated with the celts?

          whats the celts?
          if you mean ireland and maybe scotland
          then you dont have the right term celts come from keltoi. thats the name the greeks gave the Khumri who migrated across the caususus mts.600 bc
          this was a diverse group of hebrew origin. thus the reason for many askenazi matches among all europeans .Over the years too many people have migrated into a group already diverse. sure ireland is r1b . but ireland has had4 conquers firbogs ,thuathada dannan, milescians,english

          good luck since my eb3 was first in europe and i didnt mention it either.

          thing to remember no one popluation is all one haplogroup

          Comment


          • #6
            Celtic is a linguistic term.

            Good question!
            The term Celtic or Keltic refers to a language subset of Indo-European (IE) or Sanscrit, a broad but specific linguistic class which radiated East and West from a (postulated and approximate) source area in the Black Sea-Caucasian region about in the Early Neolithic. As it radiated the language devolved into subgroups, of which Germanic, Nordic, Keltic are familiar visitors to this thread. Latin, Greek and Slavonic are also accepted as IE subsets. Maybe others too.

            Timescale? Maybe very Late paleolithic onwards. Some correlate IE radiation with the flow of the Neolithic and Farming cultures, incidentally finding that the combined cultural replacement event involved only a ca 22% replacement of Europe's MtDNA population genomics.
            The Keltic language period, a later flow of this tide, was probably ca5000 ybp onwards; and has not yet ended, as you can tell from the diversion into p and q Atlantic Keltic which happened about 2,500 ybp.
            From this timescale, you can see that Keltic- language personal identity is too recent to correlate closely with the far more ancient MtDNA mutation clock. If Keltic-Speaking came with the Neolithic-Farming culture, it came late in that partial MtDNA identity replacement.

            The very brief answer is , we would not expect a cultural acquisition (language) to be chemically registered in the genome of an intracellular symbiote, the mitochondrion, which is not even part of the nuclear human genome.
            Not to say that the Keltic language period would not represent a historic "time snapshot" that included a finite number of participant old MtDNA tribes across Europe.
            That question may well interest the MtDNA Help thread in this forum group.
            Last edited by derinos; 20 March 2008, 08:29 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by derinos
              Good question!
              The term Celtic or Keltic refers to a language subset of Indo-European (IE) or Sanscrit, a broad but specific linguistic class which radiated East and West from a (postulated and approximate) source area in the Black Sea-Caucasian region about in the Early Neolithic. As it radiated the language devolved into subgroups, of which Germanic, Nordic, Keltic are familiar visitors to this thread. Latin, Greek and Slavonic are also accepted as IE subsets. Maybe others too.
              Just to clarify, Sanskrit, the forerunner of modern Hindi and Urdu, is itself part of the IE language family, not a synonym for IE. Sanskrit has been used in comparative-historical linguistics along with languages such as classical Latin and ancient Greek to hypothesize what proto-Indo-European may have been like. Proto-IE is the "language" that linguists hypothesize was the ancestor to several of the world's sub-families of languages that are found in Europe, parts of modern India, and in central Asian countries such as Iran and Afghanistan.

              Comment


              • #8
                MtDNA H

                My maternal DNA (H) comes from Ireland. At least my maternal ggrandmother's parents came from County Clare. Although I have about 3/8 Irish ancestry, I score pretty low for Ireland in DNA Tribes. In Tribes, my score for Wales is actually higher than that for Ireland, and I have no known Welsh ancestry. H is a pretty generic European haplogroup, yes?

                I have the 16519C difference from the CRS. Is this pretty common also among Euros?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by jaranta
                  My maternal DNA (H) comes from Ireland. At least my maternal ggrandmother's parents came from County Clare. Although I have about 3/8 Irish ancestry, I score pretty low for Ireland in DNA Tribes. In Tribes, my score for Wales is actually higher than that for Ireland, and I have no known Welsh ancestry. H is a pretty generic European haplogroup, yes?

                  I have the 16519C difference from the CRS. Is this pretty common also among Euros?
                  Hi Jaranta,

                  Yes, both mtdna H and the 519C mutation are very common in Europe. If you haven't done so yet, may I suggest that you have the subclade and HVR2 tested? This in most cases will start to narrow things down for you, and if not now, hopefully in the future as more people get tested.

                  Vinnie

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Hi,
                    My Mum's maternal line is English and we are MtDNA H...according to her little chart and where that side comes from we are Celtic which surprised me as I thought we'd be Anglo-Saxon, Norman or Danish. Not that I mind, at least part of me's native!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jaranta
                      My maternal DNA (H) comes from Ireland. At least my maternal ggrandmother's parents came from County Clare. Although I have about 3/8 Irish ancestry, I score pretty low for Ireland in DNA Tribes. In Tribes, my score for Wales is actually higher than that for Ireland, and I have no known Welsh ancestry. H is a pretty generic European haplogroup, yes?

                      I have the 16519C difference from the CRS. Is this pretty common also among Euros?
                      Comments:

                      1.16519 C appears also in the T2 Mt haplogroup.

                      2. No surprises here! As an extreme example, the Welsh 29,000 ybp (pre-LGM !) burial now being called "The Red Prince of Paviland", was recently reported as H Mtdna. This ceremonial burial precedes the Celtic arrival by 24,000 years; we do not even know if Ireland was populated ,in that late pre-glacial warm period.

                      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Lady_of_Paviland

                      http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba61/feat3.shtml

                      3.In a more recent time snapshot, (say, AD500 onwards), genetically, Wales and Ireland sometimes look like one country, if you restrict your testing to the interfacing coastal strips. This is due to the similar tribal, maritime trading, and fishing cultures of those two coasts, and a history of to-and- fro raids, migrations, and trade.
                      The St. Patrick story, beginning with a teenage fishing-boat kidnapping, an escape, monastic education in Gaul, and return as an evangelist, is an example of one such interchange.
                      Then there was Tristan and Isolde.
                      And the Cymric reconquest of North Wales from Germanic takeover aided by an Irish ally ca AD500.
                      The ports of Cork Ireland and Swansea Wales are linked by walk-on overnight ferries as we speak.
                      Last edited by derinos; 25 March 2008, 04:45 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by derinos
                        Comments:

                        The ports of Cork Ireland and Swansea Wales are linked by walk-on overnight ferries as we speak.
                        Don't we wish. That ship was sold before another was purchased, now there's no service at all.

                        Regards,
                        Jim
                        Cardiff

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Autosomally?

                          Originally posted by burto
                          Hi,
                          My Mum's maternal line is English and we are MtDNA H...according to her little chart and where that side comes from we are Celtic which surprised me as I thought we'd be Anglo-Saxon, Norman or Danish. Not that I mind, at least part of me's native!
                          What does it mean to be Argentinian autosomally? How -if your mom is 75% English? How can you be Aregentinian and English at the same time? My autosomals match most of my medical conditions,locations,and my maternal Haplogroup-it would all add up to being sort of the same breed wouldn't it?
                          Do you mean people in Argentina have a similar ethnicity to your mom? Like Haplogroup H Basque for instance ? It's what most Europeans are. Like 48% of Europeans are.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jambalaia32
                            What does it mean to be Argentinian autosomally? How -if your mom is 75% English? How can you be Aregentinian and English at the same time? My autosomals match most of my medical conditions,locations,and my maternal Haplogroup-it would all add up to being sort of the same breed wouldn't it?
                            Do you mean people in Argentina have a similar ethnicity to your mom? Like Haplogroup H Basque for instance ? It's what most Europeans are. Like 48% of Europeans are.
                            That's what Tribes says she matches closest to. She's 50% English 50% unknown American. It's me that's 75% English.
                            I would like to think it perhaps explains Mum's unknown heritage, but who knows? She also gets high Med matches whereas her half sister (English) gets very Germanic matches, so maybe there is some Spanish ancestry or something. She looks of hispanic descent to me, but what do I know?
                            Her MtDNA does match that side of her ancestry, but it's her paternal side we want to know about.She gets East Asian and South Asian matches with AbDNA and I get East Asian too, which could be valid but then again they might not be. I need an autosomal test that is clear with it's boundaries!

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Thanks!

                              Derinos,
                              Thanks very much for all this information. Most interesting! Judy


                              Originally posted by derinos
                              Comments:

                              1.16519 C appears also in the T2 Mt haplogroup.

                              2. No surprises here! As an extreme example, the Welsh 29,000 ybp (pre-LGM !) burial now being called "The Red Prince of Paviland", was recently reported as H Mtdna. This ceremonial burial precedes the Celtic arrival by 24,000 years; we do not even know if Ireland was populated ,in that late pre-glacial warm period.

                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Lady_of_Paviland

                              http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba61/feat3.shtml

                              3.In a more recent time snapshot, (say, AD500 onwards), genetically, Wales and Ireland sometimes look like one country, if you restrict your testing to the interfacing coastal strips. This is due to the similar tribal, maritime trading, and fishing cultures of those two coasts, and a history of to-and- fro raids, migrations, and trade.
                              The St. Patrick story, beginning with a teenage fishing-boat kidnapping, an escape, monastic education in Gaul, and return as an evangelist, is an example of one such interchange.
                              Then there was Tristan and Isolde.
                              And the Cymric reconquest of North Wales from Germanic takeover aided by an Irish ally ca AD500.
                              The ports of Cork Ireland and Swansea Wales are linked by walk-on overnight ferries as we speak.

                              Comment

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