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DO you think that haplogroup studies ...ara fair?

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  • #16
    Heraklea, I aplogize for being obtuse. Your initial posts gave me the wrong impression.

    Yes the Illyrians "faded away", meaning their descendants still live in the Balkan region. Absorbed into the people of Albania, Serbia, Macedonia and Greece. And the other guys the Peslagians as well. I may have misspelled that but you know what I mean.

    I understand how you feel about Greek and other propaganda that is pervasive today. The statement that "Albanians are Armenoids" is another ploy used in the same manner the Greeks use to make their case. I feel it is unreasonable and unobjective to make these kinds of statements. Not a single nation in the region is innocent, they all seem to use this sort of language and it does absolutely nothing to foster good will and peace.

    Genetic science can provide answers to the questions we are discussing. We must be patient and try to get as many people in our circle of influence to be tested so the answers will come sooner.

    I provided a link above and also a short history of the Arbëresh on another area of this forum at:

    Sorry if there was any confusion, I'm not a ma'am/female.


    La Roccia


    • #17
      Sandstorm words!

      The "Armenoids" , at least those now in highland Armenia, share an interesting modal YDNA profile with today's Basques, people of highland Wales and of the extreme West of Ireland. I think that puts them in a place of safety from outdated, non-genetic, statist or administrative categories. A place, or time, when they were perhaps the only folk around.
      These ancient names given us by political historians ( and some still exist !) were based on military compulsion and trade-elitist relations, temporary and cultural, not genetic. The brief period of history in which a population suffered or excelled under an enforced or chosen group name, is unlikely to have bestowed a unique durable genetic label, transmissible to today's racist politics. Some fascinating clues, of course, but mostly a jigsaw puzzle..
      Take a look at the Penguin Atlas of Ancient, or the one on Central European, History and see the names, borders and dominance, run about like water.


      • #18
        i consider macedoneans keltoi and greeks who named the keltoi greeks and since i am e3b1 and have many matches in greece, e3b1's seem to have crossed the sea to greece and into europe. the keltoi would be 1000s of years later maybe 10s of 1000s year


        • #19
          RE Are Haplogroup Studies Fair?

          Regarding the Greek/Macedonian research, I have thought about the origins of the greeks more than once over the years.

          The Greek speakers (Indo-Europeans) moved down into what is now Greece, and mixed with the earlier inhabitants. Although the (ancient) Greek language took over, the DNA of the earlier people(s) were most likely incorporated into the Greek nationality.

          That sort of thing has been going on throughout the history of Homo Sapiens.

          Of course this is just my opinion.

          Phil Hotlen


          • #20
            Here is the genetic study. That shows Greek claim for Macedonia is pure Greek propaganda.



            • #21
              Originally posted by Heraklea
              Here is the genetic study. That shows Greek claim for Macedonia is pure Greek propaganda.

              For reasons laid out earlier, this paper's methodology cannot support the conclusions drawn by the authors. It sheds no light on the issues you raise.


              • #22
                Greek-Subsaharan HLA alleles?

                Very puzzled, I read several times (the abstract of) this Madrid paper. The authors honestly developed and used innovative identifiers in the DNA. But they address autosomal rather than nuclear-Y or extranuclear-Mt material. In terms of medical genetics, these autosomal biologic findings may not support the sort of modern "racial-migration" conclusions accepted from Y-haplogroup research. (In this discussion, "modern" refers to the bi- or tri-millenium.)

                It may turn out that the autosomal differences the good doctors found, partialling the Macedonian group, from the selected Greek and African groups, are genetic disease, or disease-response identifiers. These could be for example, sickle-cell anemia or malarial-immune engrams, which the littoral Greek and African populations are medically known to share.

                Such environmentally enforced, or reinforced, adaptational/genetic interactions (like too the elusive lactose-tolerance mutation, also autosomal) may be too ancient and distributable, or too dependent on more recent environment, to be specific mass-migration trackers. We have still to find out.


                • #23
                  I had posted a comment here and someone has deleted it can I get anm Explanation for it???

                  why was my comment deleted???


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by sturmgewehr View Post
                    I had posted a comment here and someone has deleted it can I get anm Explanation for it???

                    why was my comment deleted???
                    It may not have been deleted. You may have not hit submit and hit preview and then just left to another page. I have done that before.


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by spruithean View Post
                      It may not have been deleted. You may have not hit submit and hit preview and then just left to another page. I have done that before.
                      I did it was here i could clearly read it and then I come back a couple of hours later and I can't see it.


                      • #26
                        If a posting is offensive, it could be removed.

                        They don't usually do that without issuing a warning.

                        You can go to your profile to see all postings you've made.


                        • #27
                          One would think.....

                          especially with the science of genetics and haplotyping that most if not all of the old hatreds and stereotyping that had been rampant for generations would begin to fall by the wayside. We are all part of each other. Whether by choice of by force, women were impregnated by men from various places for thousands of years. So, we are all decendents of other peoples from places we might not, in our short lives, have considered. But those are the facts. I find it amazing, incredibly interesting and believe it makes me more a citizen of this planet than just of one city, state or country. I believe more than ever, that I have something in common with people of this Earth and that it offers me a unique opportunity to connect to, empathize with and actually be responsible for others.


                          • #28
                            Not to mention the fact that this is a very old thread (started in 2004) whose most recent post was from March of 2006 until it was dredged up and revivified like some undead zombie on June 16, 2009.

                            No doubt the folks who began this thread have learned a lot since 2004.

                            We all have.


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by AngelaC View Post
                              I personally believe all people on this planet are inherently equal, and there is no such thing as “race” (which is why I usually put “race” in inverted commas).
                              Well saying "race" exists, as a definition for a term meaning a taxonomic classification of phenotype traits made common by cultural isolation, which is all that it is argued to be as far as my understanding goes: doesn't then thus conclude that people are not inherently equal. Furthermore if one was to prove that anthropological sets of traits were not prevalent enough at any time in groups via cultural isolation to create ethnic phenotypes, and thus 'race' could be proven as nonexistent: this made fact would not go any further to a proof that people are inherently equal. As they are (race & equality) unrelated conceptions and arguments entirely.