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DO you think that haplogroup studies ...ara fair?

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  • DO you think that haplogroup studies ...ara fair?

    I have just read a study, which was published in 2001 by some professors.

    They claim, that Greeks are more closely related to sub-saharan Africans, than they are to Europeans (absolute nonesense !).

    And that "Macedonians" are more European,than Greeks are.

    The professors' Macedonian study group was of people, who reside in the Former Republic of Macedonia.(a state that was recently created)

    Macedonia was Greek - and it was a region ,that in ancient times
    incompassed parts of modern day Greece, The former macedonian republic of yugoslavia and bulgaria.

    How can such a study be valid - when you do not take samples from all modern day countries that made up ANCIENT MACEDONIA ?

    My question is :- Do you think that some haplogroup studies are
    biased ( are they funded by certain interest groups) ?

  • #2
    Re: DO you think that haplogroup studies ...ara fair?

    Originally posted by ROSCO
    I have just read a study, which was published in 2001 by some professors.

    They claim, that Greeks are more closely related to sub-saharan Africans, than they are to Europeans (absolute nonesense !).


    My question is :- Do you think that some haplogroup studies are
    biased ( are they funded by certain interest groups) ?
    Haplogroup studies are usually done at Universities, and if published in reputed journals should not be biased (if they were biased, the study would never make it past the journal referees).

    Was this study published in a journal, and if so what journal, volume etc. (so I can have a look at it.....)

    If this was just referred to it a web site (without citing where the data was published) it might be rubbish.
    If the researchers are who I think they are, theý are not reputable & any decent scientist in the field will not take their theories seriously.
    There are a few weird white supremists out there making bogus claims that classical society (eg. Greek) collapsed because it was "contaminated by african genes". This is a whole lot of rubbish and doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

    Angela.

    Comment


    • #3
      Hello Costa: The haplogroups that people belong to go way back before Nationalities -- before Greeks, before Macedonians. Therefore, they relate to the movements of ancient peoples, 40,000 to 8,000 years ago. In this case, ancient peoples moved from AFrica to Greece, which should not be surprising when you look at a map. It may be that more of the people in Macedonia are related to people who moved south from central Europe than moved north from Greece.
      To give you a picture of how old all these movements are, my northwestern European mtdna is haplogroup "J", which came from north Syria about 10,000 years ago, along the northern shores of the Mediterranean and, probably in my case, into Spain and Portugal and from there to Ireland and Western England. Other "J" people moved into central Europe (Poland, Russia, Germany). All of this took place before there were historically identifiable tribes and peoples.
      I do not think these haplogroup studies are funded by any special interest groups. They have been done by a wide variety of universities and science labs in a variety of different countries.
      Furthermore, you will find that people are very mixed. Haplogroups tied to Y-dna or mtdna tests are only testing ONE group of chromosomes from ONE ancestral line. We have many ancestral lines and when you get back to 10,000 or more years ago, even with inevitable looping back on themselves, the number of possible ancestors is millions. So even thos Macedonians may have had 90% Greek ancestry and still show a non-Greek type haplogroup from the lines tested.
      Last edited by whitkeen; 9 February 2004, 11:04 AM.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Re: DO you think that haplogroup studies ...ara fair?

        Originally posted by AngelaCP
        If the researchers are who I think they are, theý are not reputable & any decent scientist in the field will not take their theories seriously.
        There are a few weird white supremists out there making bogus claims that classical society (eg. Greek) collapsed because it was "contaminated by african genes". This is a whole lot of rubbish and doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

        Angela.
        Hi everyone ,

        I thought I should clarify my previous posting (having looked at the paper, verified it was the study I was thinking of, and sorted through the controversy surrounding it).

        The paper that Costa is referring to is one written by two Spanish scientists. They use a tissue antigen gene (HLA) for their study, not the highly regarded mtDNA or y-chromosome markers. Autosomal DNA that is subject to population selection should never be used for making inferences about population ancestry. The use of this gene marker for inferring population history has been subsequently been highly criticised by reputable mtDNA researchers (eg. L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza).

        The paper was trying to assert that Greek tissue antigen genes were like the sub-Saharan African tissue antigen genes, and are quite unlike the tissue antigen genes found in other Europeans, and that in contrast Macedonian tissue antigens genes closely match those in other European populations. The authors of the paper also make some very naïve claims about the history of the populations they are talking about.

        Unfortunately, the research has subsequently been used by two separate sets of individuals as “evidence” for their own political agendas, a Macedonian independence organisation, and a former South African Arthur Kemp reputed to be a white supremacist. The latter individual has some very bizarre claims, which I briefly referred to.

        The repute of the researchers and the repute of the people using the data are two separate issues, and my original post might have blurred this. Looking back at the post, I am hoping that no one though that I was saying that there something inherently wrong with the idea of African heritage in Greeks. I personally believe all people on this planet are inherently equal, and there is no such thing as “race” (which is why I usually put “race” in inverted commas). I have one ancestor who was most likely of African ancestry, and proud of it!

        The actual mtDNA and Y-chromosome data show that Greek haplotype frequencies are typically Mediterranean.
        The mtDNA haplotypes are the same as those found in typical European and middle eastern populations.

        H 42.16867
        J 12.6506
        U5 9.036145
        T 6.024096
        x 4.216867
        I 4.216867
        K 3.614458
        HV 3.012048
        U4 2.409639
        V 1.807229
        U1 1.807229
        U* 1.807229
        W 1.204819
        U3 1.204819
        pre HV 1.204819
        N1 1.204819
        D 0.60241
        U2 0.60241
        M7 0.60241
        L1a 0.60241

        This data was counted up from the “mdE” column of the data set of the 2000 paper “tracing founder lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA pool”

        http://www.stats.gla.ac.uk/~vincent/...000/index.html


        The Y-chromosome data shows the Greek population clustering with Albanians and Sardinians. A few haplotypes are shared with African populations, but just a few. Overall the Greek Y-chromosome haplotype frequencies are roughly intermediate between typical western European populations, and middle eastern populations
        http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Science%20290.pdf
        http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/nrg1124_fs.pdf

        I agree with Costa, that the researchers responsible for the HLA marker study were very deficient in their historical research. I am amazed that the paper got published. The article was published in a journal relevant to research on tissue, so can only assume that the paper was refereed by tissue scientists that were ignorant of the fact that the use of the marker was highly inappropriate for population studies!!.

        Angela.

        Comment


        • #5
          Hello everyone,

          The best site to visit in order for someone
          to view -The most comprehensive study of Y-chromosomal diversity in Europe:

          http://www.geocities.com/dienekesp/

          Thank you for viewing

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Re: Re: DO you think that haplogroup studies ...ara fair?

            Originally posted by AngelaCP
            Hi everyone ,

            The Y-chromosome data shows the Greek population clustering with Albanians and Sardinians. A few haplotypes are shared with African populations, but just a few. Overall the Greek Y-chromosome haplotype frequencies are roughly intermediate between typical western European populations, and middle eastern populations
            [.
            I should clarify that the haplotypes shared between Greeks and Africans are found in all other populations as well, and are not Haplotypes originating from sub-saharan Africa.
            The Haplotypes that I was referring to are E3b, and Haplotype R.

            Haplotype R is Eurasian in origin, and its prescence in African populations (particularly Nigeria) researchers believe represents an ancient migration into the Cameroons from Eurasia.

            Haplotype E3b is found in high numbers in Berbers and Arabs (80%, 70%), in medium numbers from the Middle East to the central Mediterranean (26% in Lebanese, 22% in Greece, 14% in Macedonia), and in low numbers throughout the rest of Europe (eg. 6.2 in Germany, 2.2 % in Spanish Basques). It is also found in a few subsaharan populations, including the !Kung (11%). E3b is best thought of as North African in origin.

            My figures come from two papers written by prominent researchers. Both papers were written before the current Y-chromosome nomenclature was adopted.

            For the middle eastern/european figures refer to:
            http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Science%20290.pdf
            In this paper Eu4 is the same as E3b, Eu18 is the same as haplogroup R1.

            For the African figures refer to:
            Cruciani et al. Human Y-chromosome Haplotype variation in Africa. 2002
            http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v70n5/013596/013596.web.pdf
            They have their own haplotypes 1-117, which are defined by the SNP mutations. It takes a bit of decoding, but by checking against the mutations in the tree in the Y-consortium paper, you find that E3b is represented by haplogroups 30-37.

            A more recent study (quoted in the web site Costa mentions above) shows differing amounts of Eb3 in 13 different Greek populations ranging from 9-44%, average being 20.2%.


            Angela.

            Comment


            • #7
              hello everyone,

              Angela in your previous post you said:

              "Haplotype E3b is found in high numbers in Berbers and Arabs (80%, 70%), in medium numbers from the Middle East to the central Mediterranean (26% in Lebanese, 22% in Greece, 14% in Macedonia), and in low numbers throughout the rest of Europe (eg. 6.2 in Germany, 2.2 % in Spanish Basques). It is also found in a few subsaharan populations, including the !Kung (11%). E3b is best thought of as North African in origin."

              But,Macedonia is a Greek province, and its people GREEK !

              If, you are refering to FYROM (former yugoslav rebublic
              of macedonia) -then their ethnic mix is as follows:-

              1) SLAVS (majority)

              2) Albanians

              3) OTHERS ( TURKS,GYPSIES etc)

              And FYROM is a newly created state.

              Thank you

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by ROSCO
                hello everyone,

                Angela in your previous post you said:

                "Haplotype E3b is found in high numbers in Berbers and Arabs (80%, 70%), in medium numbers from the Middle East to the central Mediterranean (26% in Lebanese, 22% in Greece, 14% in Macedonia), and in low numbers throughout the rest of Europe (eg. 6.2 in Germany, 2.2 % in Spanish Basques). It is also found in a few subsaharan populations, including the !Kung (11%). E3b is best thought of as North African in origin."

                But,Macedonia is a Greek province, and its people GREEK !

                If, you are refering to FYROM (former yugoslav rebublic
                of macedonia) -then their ethnic mix is as follows:-

                1) SLAVS (majority)

                2) Albanians

                3) OTHERS ( TURKS,GYPSIES etc)

                And FYROM is a newly created state.

                Thank you
                True.
                The semino et al 2000 paper authors use"Macendonian" as the name for one of the populations listed.
                I've checked the paper & they do mean Macedonia in the northern Greece sense (not the FYROM).
                I apologise for any confusion,

                Angela.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Take your Greek propaganda somewhere else. Newly created state

                  Macedonia has been around for centuries. And we are still the people of Alexander The Great. We speak Slavic because we came under Slavic influence in 600 AD but we always kept our ancestry and the Slavic assimilation into us is very low.

                  Macedonia in Greece is occupied territory that have nothing with Greek people to do. Leave that to us and stop saying that Macedonians are Hellenes.

                  I have done the test and I'm placed in m343 which place me with the proto-Europeans. As Macedonia is proto-European and Greece is as you said related to sub-saharan Africans.

                  http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Rosco you asked a good question and the responses were interesting and excellent as well. I just want to mention a couple of things.

                    It's good to remove politics from the discussion of genetics. Like someone mentioned earlier, these haplogroups go way back; before modern nations. The people that lived in the Balkans in that period could care less about what a "Greek", "Macedonian", "Serb" or "Albanian" was because the words/nations didn't exist.

                    Looking at my own origin I could possibly be a descendant of "Greek" or "Macedonian" colonists in Sicily, way before the words "Greek" or "Macedonian" were coined. So I try my best not to use the name of a modern nation in explaining deep origins. Sometimes you have to mention a modern nation as a reference to provide some perspective on things but I clarify that these events took place before the establishment of the mentioned nations.

                    The Balkans is a hotbed of destructive attitudes stemming from ignorance and downright arrogance. This and the outsider meddling in the affairs of the region have contributed to the wars and genocides that have took place there.

                    If one does their best to remain objective and look at the genetics of the region the fact that these people are related and all have contributed to the wonderful cultures that exist becomes obvious.

                    I hope that genetic science will be able to shed light on the commonalities between peoples and demonstrate that there was shared influence in the various regions of the world.

                    S y'all play nice.

                    La Roccia

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Heraklea, did you read any of the replies to Rosco's inquiry?

                      You just came back and said Greeks were related to Sub-Saharan Africans without articulating your invective statement. Go back and read the excellent replies to Rosco's questions, you might gain some understanding on things "Greek" and "Macedonian".

                      I find myself in the middle of the Albanian - Greek - Macedonian debate. Being Arberesh I have "Albanian" and "Greek" ancestors and try to study the history of the region as rigorously and objectively as possible. I know about what took place in the creation of the modern Albanian and Greek states and can understand the angst of the people in the region. I know about the partitioning of Albania, putting most of its food producing lands in the hands of someone else. I know about half of Macedonian territory being handed over Greece. I know about how the Greeks say that there is no such thing as a Macedonian, etc. etc. This "border editing" was imposed by outsiders.

                      It's a shame that the people that manipulated things back in the 19th and 20th centuries didn't have a clear genetic picture of the region. They could have prevented a lot of bad blood and bloodshed by showcasing the things that the people of the Balkans had in common instead of drawing lines of division to benefit those of influence.

                      La Roccia

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        How many Albanians left for Sicily during the Ottoman period?
                        Besides Albanians are not Illyrians. Albanians came from Ancient Albania which is present near Chechnya.
                        Albanians are the race of Armenoid.
                        Last edited by ; 5 March 2006, 08:02 AM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          How many Albanians left for Sicily during the Ottoman period?
                          Besides Albanians are not Illyrians. Albanians came from Ancient Albania which is present near Chechnya.
                          Albanians are the race of Armenoid.
                          Heraklea, There were a good number of Arberesh but I can't give you an exact number right now. I can offer some links for you to read.

                          To come into a genetics forum and make invective and ignorant statements leaves you wide open to being torn to shreds by people with scientific data to back up their arguments. You don't seem to want to provide any science as a basis for your argument.

                          Your statement that "Albanians are the race of Armenoid" seems to have been proven wrong by genetic science. People make this statment because there is a place called Albania in the Armenia region. Your tone indicates that you think there is something wrong with Armenians.

                          Didn't you read Angela's and the other posts where she pointed out the genetic origins of Albanians, Greeks and Sardinians? Start doing some reading of real scientific papers and unbiased history, you could benefit greatly.

                          The Illyrians resided in what is present day Albania, nearby regions of the Balkans and as far west as Italy. So, not only do Albanians descend from Illyrians; so do Italians and other people in the Balkans.

                          There is as much "historical" evidence that shows Alexander was Albanian as there is showing he was Macedonian. I'll have to look at the time line, he may have been just Alexander because the modern day political borders most likely not the same as the ones that existed in his time. It's really irrelevant to me because Alexander's armies were comprised of people from all parts of the region.

                          This is a scientific forum. So, before you make an unsubstantiated statement it would wise to pause and think about having some real data to back it up.

                          Places like Stormfront welcome idiotic and invective statements lacking objectivity and real scientific data. Perhaps you would feel more at home there. It seems racists are lacking something. The ability to see who their real enemy is; the person they look at in the mirror every morning. Hopefully some day humans will evolve beyond having this need to "belong" to something and to blame things on other people(s).

                          La Roccia

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Arberësh Migrations To Italy And Sicily

                            If you want to read some history of the Arberësh migrations to Italy & Sicily you can do so at:

                            http://guzzardi.it/arberia/

                            It is in Italian and can be translated using Google or Babelfish.

                            I'll post another history in English as another thread.

                            La Roccia

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              No mam, I have no bad intentions against some race or people even if it sounded like that.

                              First: proto-Armenians are not of Armenoid race. Maybe a number of them are because they are surrounded by Armenoid nations.

                              Second: How can you tell that
                              So, not only do Albanians descend from Illyrians; so do Italians and other people in the Balkans
                              as there is no Illyrian nation present today.

                              Illyrians faded away many years ago approximately 1500-2000 years ago. Many merged with people of the Balkans but how can you tell their genetic structure and say that
                              So, not only do Albanians descend from Illyrians; so do Italians and other people in the Balkans
                              when nobody did any genetic study of them 1500-2000 years ago.

                              Third: Borders in ancient time did exist. And Kingdom Macedonia had it's borders as Illyricum. So how can you say that the king of Macedon was Illyrian as this two kingdoms were very separate.

                              Please provide me with link's I would like to know something I don't know. And I'm not the one who want to take this discussion into a political argue as we have seen the Greeks do all over internet with their propaganda.
                              Last edited by ; 5 March 2006, 09:20 AM.

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