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J2a1* and Catalhoyuk

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  • J2a1* and Catalhoyuk

    From what I have read in the paper about Y-chromosomes in Greece, the Greek islands including Crete and Turkey it seems to me that the majority of men who lived in the ancient farming sites like Catalhoyuk were most likely J2a1*.

    It seems that from Anatolia these J2a1* farmers then spread out from there using the sea and colonized the Greek islands and Crete and Southern Italy to a large extent. Interesting though how they did not make it into mainland Greece very far.

  • #2
    Originally posted by J Man
    From what I have read in the paper about Y-chromosomes in Greece, the Greek islands including Crete and Turkey it seems to me that the majority of men who lived in the ancient farming sites like Catalhoyuk were most likely J2a1*.

    It seems that from Anatolia these J2a1* farmers then spread out from there using the sea and colonized the Greek islands and Crete and Southern Italy to a large extent. Interesting though how they did not make it into mainland Greece very far.
    Yeah, perhaps the mainland of Greece was already populated by other genes, whilst the Islands were relatively free? Suggesting that the mainland Greeks were not a seafaring people at that time, due to being newly settled farmers from nomadic tribes? Or simply, just farmers and not seafarers....

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    • #3
      J2a in general must have been a very frequent haplogroup in neolithic Anatolia. Cinnioglu, who analyzes modern day Anatolia, finds a lot of J2xJ2b in central Anatolia (J2a1 and other groups) - the most frequent haplogroup there, followed at some distance by R1b and G. Incidentally, the paper you cite finds some J2a also in NW Peloponnese, but not in central and N Greece.

      The J2b and E3b that seem so frequent in Greece must have come through Anatolia, though, as you say, they're not particularly frequent in the center of that region. One thing to note is that a previous paper had described J2b (and E3b) as post-neolithic, whereas this one considers it neolithic. The difference, apparently, is in a different mutational clock used. We'll leave to the E3b guys to sort this out.

      The paper doesn't say much about what could have been in Greece before these migrations, but by exclusion, what is left is R1b.

      cacio

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Hando
        Yeah, perhaps the mainland of Greece was already populated by other genes, whilst the Islands were relatively free? Suggesting that the mainland Greeks were not a seafaring people at that time, due to being newly settled farmers from nomadic tribes? Or simply, just farmers and not seafarers....

        I am thinking that that is most likely the case with the islands. They were probably uninhabited until Neolithic farmers reached them

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        • #5
          Originally posted by cacio
          J2a in general must have been a very frequent haplogroup in neolithic Anatolia. Cinnioglu, who analyzes modern day Anatolia, finds a lot of J2xJ2b in central Anatolia (J2a1 and other groups) - the most frequent haplogroup there, followed at some distance by R1b and G. Incidentally, the paper you cite finds some J2a also in NW Peloponnese, but not in central and N Greece.

          The J2b and E3b that seem so frequent in Greece must have come through Anatolia, though, as you say, they're not particularly frequent in the center of that region. One thing to note is that a previous paper had described J2b (and E3b) as post-neolithic, whereas this one considers it neolithic. The difference, apparently, is in a different mutational clock used. We'll leave to the E3b guys to sort this out.

          The paper doesn't say much about what could have been in Greece before these migrations, but by exclusion, what is left is R1b.

          cacio

          Correct Cacio there is a good amount of J2a in the NW Peloponesse. That might be due to a founder affect and isolation though.

          Since my own direct paternal line ancestors are from Calabria do you think it would be reasonable to conclude that they probably arrived there during the Neolithic? I know that they could have come later but I think it would be really cool if they came as Neolithic farmers

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          • #6
            I think Semino et al in a paper on E and J in the Mediterranean claim that J2(xJ2b) must have come to S Italy in Neolithic times. After all, it's hard to think otherwise, given how frequent J2 is in the region (>20%), and the fact that Greece has very little of (so one cannot relate it to the Greek colonization).

            cacio

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            • #7
              Originally posted by cacio
              I think Semino et al in a paper on E and J in the Mediterranean claim that J2(xJ2b) must have come to S Italy in Neolithic times. After all, it's hard to think otherwise, given how frequent J2 is in the region (>20%), and the fact that Greece has very little of (so one cannot relate it to the Greek colonization).

              cacio
              Right right I remember that paper as well now. Cool stuff

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              • #8
                Does anyone know of any good papers or readings on Neolithic Anatolia? I have looked up some stuff on the net but I am wondering if anyone knows of any sites I may have missed? I have checked out a few good sites on Catalhoyuk which were really interesting.

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