English-Viking DNA study

[Eki]

Looking at the major rivers, the most natural route for the Pomors from Pomerania to the White Sea would probably be something like this:

http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/2979/pomoritng7.jpg

That route goes pretty much through or near the I1a hotspots in Russia:

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/1236/hgi1apomorfh4.jpg

[Eki]

How do you know where they originally came from? Skolt sami group originally came from the border area between Norway, Finland and Russia.

I read it here:

http://www.siida.fi/saamjiellem/english/tieto_etusivu.html

The Skolt Sami are an indigenous population of the Kola Peninsula, who lost their native lands in Petsamo as a result of World War II. In terms of their language and traditions, they belong to the Eastern Sami. They are Orthodox by religion. Their clothing style, music, festival traditions, customs, and food traditions also include eastern features.

[Noaide]

I have read that there were indeed Finnish Vikings, although not as numerous. They were prized crew members among the "mainstream" Vikings because of their ferocity. It is said by those who tell of such things that a Finlander Viking could summon a cold, ill wind with his sorcery.

How was these people identified as suomi-finnish? Its a common mistake to identify the sagas "finns" with modern finnlanders. In the saga "finnas" refer to sami people, this term has been used by norwegians until very recently. The saga refer to the sami as skilled bowmen, skiiers and excellent shipbuilders that even according to the sagas made the fastest viking warship. Unfortunatly sami these days have been stereotyped as only beeing reindeer hurders, when actually the sami have specialised into several groups: mountain sami (usually the raindeer hurders), river sami, forest sami and coastal sea sami.

[Noaide]

The Skolt saami come originally from the Kola peninsula at the White Sea. I think the high frequency of I1a among the Skolt Saami may have come from the Pomors, a group of people in the Kola peninsula, who originally may have come from Pomerania (hence the name Pomors) on the southern coast of the Baltic Sea between Germany and Poland:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomors

How do you know where they originally came from? Skolt sami group originally came from the border area between Norway, Finland and Russia. There are however other sami groups further east like the Kildin, Akkala and Ter sami. The skolt sami (and the Anara and Kildin too) have a very distinctive DYS19=15 modal frequency at 57%. This type of I1a is much much lower in Finland. I do not know the frequency of DYS19=15 among the Pomors. Is there any Y-dna paper available?

[Eki]

Pomerania:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomerania

Pomerania is a collective term used to refer to the three regions of Hither Pomerania, Farther Pomerania, and Pomerelia.[1] It is located on the south coast of the Baltic Sea, divided today between Germany in the west and Poland in the east by the Polish-German border.

While its boundaries have varied, and are somewhat differently interpreted,[2] Pomerania can be said to stretch roughly from Stralsund in the west to Gdańsk in the east, centred on the Oder River delta around Szczecin.

The Polish part of Pomerania is divided into three voivodeships: West Pomeranian, Pomeranian, and Kuyavian-Pomerian. The German part of Pomerania is included within the Federal State Mecklenburg-Vorpommern.
Geography

Pomerania is the area along the Baltic Sea between the Vistula, Notec, Warta and Recknitz rivers. The islands of Rugen, Usedom and Wolin lie along the Pomeranian coast, while the Hel peninsula and the Vistula peninsula jut out into the Baltic.

The Baltic forms the Bay of Pomerania, Lagoon of Szczecin, Gdansk Bay with Bay of Puck, and Vistula Bay along the coast. Lakes Lebsko, Jamno and Gardno were formerly bays but have been cut off from the sea.

[Eki]

Here is the post:

"02-07-2008, 08:55 AM
Noaide
Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 775

The skolt-sami between the norwegian, finnish and russian border have I1a over 50%."

The Skolt saami come originally from the Kola peninsula at the White Sea. I think the high frequency of I1a among the Skolt Saami may have come from the Pomors, a group of people in the Kola peninsula, who originally may have come from Pomerania (hence the name Pomors) on the southern coast of the Baltic Sea between Germany and Poland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomors

Pomors are Russian settlers of the White Sea coasts, where they used to live side by side with the Kola Saami, the Kola Norwegians (to the west), and the Nenets people (to the east).

As early as the 12th century, explorers from Novgorod entered the White Sea through the Northern Dvina and Onega estuaries and founded settlements along the sea coasts of Bjarmaland. Their chief town used to be Kholmogory, until the rise of Arkhangelsk in the late 1500s. From their base at Kola, they explored the Barents Region and the Kola peninsula, Spitsbergen, and Novaya Zemlya.

Later in history, the Pomors discovered and maintained the Northern Sea Route between Arkhangelsk and Siberia. With their ships (koches), the Pomors penetrated to the trans-Ural areas of Northern Siberia, where they founded the settlement of Mangazeya east of the Yamal Peninsula in the early 1500s.

Some authors speculate that it was Pomors who settled, supposedly in the early 1600s, the isolated village of Russkoye Ustye in the delta of the Indigirka, in north-eastern Yakutia.[1]

Their name is derived from the Pomorsky (literally, "maritime") coast of the White Sea (between Onega and Kem), having the root of more (море, meaning "sea"; derived from an Indo-European root). The same root is evident in the toponym Pomerania. The most famous Pomors are Mikhail Lomonosov, Fedot Shubin (both born near Kholmogory), and Semyon Dezhnev (born in Veliky Ustyug).

The traditional livelihoods of the Pomors based on the sea included animal hunting, whaling and fishing; in tundra regions they practiced the reindeer herding. Sea trading in corn and fish with Northern Norway was important for them. This trade was so intensive that a kind of Russian-Norwegian pidgin language Moja pa tvoja (or Russenorsk) was created and used on the North Norwegian coast in 1750

[cobramach]

Vikings came from Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. They did not come from Finland. In fact, Vikings raided and pillaged Finland, and engaged in other activities there, as well.

So, Vikings were Norse, or Northern Germanic, whereas the appellation "Nordic" includes also the non-Germanic, non-Viking Finno-Ugric speaking peoples of the Nordic region (Finns, Samis, etc.).

In other words (just for humor's sake), all Vikings are Nordic, but not all Nordics are Vikings.

I have read that there were indeed Finnish Vikings, although not as numerous. They were prized crew members among the "mainstream" Vikings because of their ferocity. It is said by those who tell of such things that a Finlander Viking could summon a cold, ill wind with his sorcery.

[derinos]

Enjoy a Viking Program?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/viking_way/viking_way_20051109.shtml

This is a series by BBC which is basically Audio Radio relayed over the net. I just had a pleasant Old Norse half-hour, sipping a beer and listening, effortlessly, to the skalds.

[Jim Denning]

How can you even do this

How can you even do this If you dont know who settled where and what they were..Usually people assume vikings were some strange group. of a different origin from all of europe.

in the geneaology of george washington he is decended from odin.
it shows odin migrating from between persia and assyria . that my friends is keltoi. the same people we have reduced to celts.

thats why so many askenazi matches
remember all hebrews didnt have the same mom

[derinos]

Finnish area of 50% of Y= I1a !!

Comment: I agree; the word Nordic means" of the North" so that makes your point.
Incidentally a well-informed member recently posted here that in the Finland Saami area there is a region where 50% of the men are Y I1a.

Here is the post:

"02-07-2008, 08:55 AM
Noaide
Registered User Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 775

The skolt-sami between the norwegian, finnish and russian border have I1a over 50%."

[Hando]

You are correct on this CWF. I remember watching a documentary before where it said that English women actually preferred the Viking/Nordic men when they arrived in England because the combed their hair, washed regularly and changed their clothes often. Now that sure is a lot different than the standard Viking stereotype

Yes, apparently Vikings were rather well groomed and well heeled. Quite the fashionable set...

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2008-02/uu-vdn022508.php

[clintonplatt]

There is some evidence that vikings did not come from nordic countries alone. On my mother's native island in The Netherlands, a viking hoard was found and the main church has a separate entrance for northmen (legend has it that the low doors forced the pagan northmen to bow to the altar!). It is my understanding that there may have been belgian vikings as well that plundered the UK.

The Vikings could also be considered to be French. William who became the new king of England in 1066 was of Viking descent: his great-great-great- grandfather, Rollo, was a Viking who in 911 invaded Normandy in northern France. His people had become French over time, so in one sense this last successful invasion of England was another Viking one.

Regards,
C

[purple flowers]

[
Comment: The Welsh spelling is Madoc or Madog depending on the grammatical case. The usual English or US spelling is Madock, Maddock or Maddox. The reputed date is 11th Century, and a (claimed to be contemporary ) poem goes:

"Gwel' yn cychwyn
Tair ar ddeg
O longau bach
Ar forau teg."

See them leaving,
Just thirteen
Of little ships,
This morning keen.

I knew there was other spellings. thanks so much ! great poem.
In my childhood stories I remembered it as prince mad/dog..( of course we have to put that in context of other men who were turtles and bears and crains, Sausage)
I knew there was other spellings.. SO thank you .
in school when I had to make stories about Columbus, I made them about prince mad dog ...
600 years before columbus. I dont think the teachers believed me..

[J Man]

Yes the Norse/Vikings did raid and pillage along the west coast of Finland. There were no real significant Viking settlements in Finland though. The Swedes did not settle in Finland until later after Sweden became Christian.

[derinos]

Vikings came from Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. They did not come from Finland. In fact, Vikings raided and pillaged Finland, and engaged in other activities there, as well.

So, Vikings were Norse, or Northern Germanic, whereas the appellation "Nordic" includes also the non-Germanic, non-Viking Finno-Ugric speaking peoples of the Nordic region (Finns, Samis, etc.).

In other words (just for humor's sake), all Vikings are Nordic, but not all Nordics are Vikings.

Comment: I agree; the word Nordic means" of the North" so that makes your point.
Incidentally a well-informed member recently posted here that in the Finland Saami area there is a region where 50% of the men are Y I1a.