English-Viking DNA study

[derinos]

Norse Stuff

Hi all.

I am a little bit new here but I am puzzled by all the strong reactions to anything Viking or Scandinavian. A few months ago I was surprised by my DNA test results that revealed that I am I1a-N. I am Black and was somewhat aware that my father's line probably had white/european ancestry. I just never considered the possibility that it could be Scandinavian. I've been scouring through all the posts about I1a, Scandinavian and Viking topics and have come to realize that they tend to be really controversial. Any thoughts on why??

I received an even bigger surprise when I got my mtdna results back but that's another story.

Thanks.

Welcome to the club! Thoughts on why the controversy? Good question!
It is the usual problem of semantics, that a word always means what the listener thinks it means!

You watch the movie called "The Vikings", and the word means swords and blood.

As a civilized I1a (N) I may feel insulted to be called a Viking. If I am an antisocial psychopath serial killer with white supremacist hangups, I think it is a big compliment.

I am becoming a forum bore on this, but here is my HO again:

Norse = People from Scandinavia, for say the last 5000 years. Good with wood, steel, boats, laws and sagas. They invaded, and were in turn invaded, many times, with assimilation and integration both ways. Discovered America 850 or so, did not invade successfully due to "Indian" power. In England they had good luck AD 900 to 1200. Also Russia's Volga territory, Normandy, Sicily, etc.

Vikings = Scandinavian young men in boats who escaped parental supervision, raided and killed, and stole from coastal communities from AD 600 to 1100. Not to be mistaken for Norse annexing invaders, lawmakers, traders and settlers.

[Johnserrat]

Here is some interesting news about the viking people:

http://www.physorg.com/news123162390.html

Apparently, the viking women dressed quite provocatively before the Christians came and ruined everything!

John

[derinos]

Russian fashion came from Sweden.

Here is some interesting news about the viking people:

http://www.physorg.com/news123162390.html

Apparently, the viking women dressed quite provocatively before the Christians came and ruined everything!

John

Nice designer clothes!
But the writer had the originators-copiers upside-down.
"Russ" meaning "The Rowing Folk" was the self-name of the Scandinavians who explored down the waterways, especially the Volga, as far as the Black Sea over many centuries, founding a cultural territory known as "Russ-ia" The Land of the Rowing Folk, and bringing their fashions with them.

[CWF]

Have you tested your autosomal DNA? It could be interesting to see how that much diversity shows up on the map. You could have native matches at least on 4 continents (Europe, Africa, Asia and the Americas).

I am considering autosomal testing because it theoretically could provide more information however there seems to be questions about its reliability. I'm going to think about it though.

[CWF]

Welcome to the club! Thoughts on why the controversy? Good question!
It is the usual problem of semantics, that a word always means what the listener thinks it means!

You watch the movie called "The Vikings", and the word means swords and blood.

As a civilized I1a (N) I may feel insulted to be called a Viking. If I am an antisocial psychopath serial killer with white supremacist hangups, I think it is a big compliment.

I am becoming a forum bore on this, but here is my HO again:

Norse = People from Scandinavia, for say the last 5000 years. Good with wood, steel, boats, laws and sagas. They invaded, and were in turn invaded, many times, with assimilation and integration both ways. Discovered America 850 or so, did not invade successfully due to "Indian" power. In England they had good luck AD 900 to 1200. Also Russia's Volga territory, Normandy, Sicily, etc.

Vikings = Scandinavian young men in boats who escaped parental supervision, raided and killed, and stole from coastal communities from AD 600 to 1100. Not to be mistaken for Norse annexing invaders, lawmakers, traders and settlers.

A co-worker of mine (she's of German heritage) talked about how some white supremacists like to use "viking" icons and imagery which was a little unsettling but we had a good laugh when I said, "Oh boy! Wait till they run across me!"

To date I have just thought about the Viking image as just being a part of Scandinavian history. After all, the longboat seems to be the ever present and almost universal symbol of Scandinavia. But...I'm still quite a newbie when it comes to these matters and so your opinion, along with those of others, is helpful in thinking about these things.

[CWF]

Here is some interesting news about the viking people:

http://www.physorg.com/news123162390.html

Apparently, the viking women dressed quite provocatively before the Christians came and ruined everything!

John

Very interesting article. A few days ago I ran across a story (probably on this forum) that stated that, unlike the stereotype, vikings were far more hygienic and well kept than the image that was portrayed of them. They bathed fully once a week on "wash day" and washed the face daily. The most humorous thing I found was that apparently the norse men and women weren't naturally blond but used specially made soaps to bleach their hair blond.

[purple flowers]

I am considering autosomal testing because it theoretically could provide more information however there seems to be questions about its reliability. I'm going to think about it though.

connected to every one ? .. that was so cute..
I just wanted to say that it is pretty well proven that there was viking dna that was left here in the Americas and south America and maybe even with Prince Maddox group also. so both your dna lines may have been here for a very long time ago. so it is possible, but not probable your I1a is old American too.
do you have sisters and aunts and nieces.. this is where education would really be important .. for health reasons.. and life style changes.. if they understand what they once were and in that is what we are most healthy living like. understanding issues of other women in their like "clan" can only help them be healthier. and they will pas that issues and ways down to their children.. only your daughters may get those issues .. but they will not pass them.
"being" native American ,,,, well that is a very long story.. and very complicated unless you find the right kind of people to help you out ... so be discrete... and sensitive to their "over protectiveness" maybe the right term .. but you have every right to find out about your family history do not let them stop you from that OK. promise? they can be stinkers don't let them stop you either .. it's YOUR history.
but I am so happy that some are finding their way back to their heritage.
people do not understand how much devastation was done to the eastern tribes.

[Akka]

You've got it right, Vikings were just the marine equivalent of motorcycle gangs in the Nordic world ( Norway Sweden Denmark Finland ).

Vikings came from Norway, Sweden, and Denmark. They did not come from Finland. In fact, Vikings raided and pillaged Finland, and engaged in other activities there, as well.

So, Vikings were Norse, or Northern Germanic, whereas the appellation "Nordic" includes also the non-Germanic, non-Viking Finno-Ugric speaking peoples of the Nordic region (Finns, Samis, etc.).

In other words (just for humor's sake), all Vikings are Nordic, but not all Nordics are Vikings.

[purple flowers]

[QUOTE=purple flowers]

http://www.agt.net/public/dgarneau/indian16.htm

on another site we are discussing indian slavery , thisis oneof my favorite site for history.. he has some sad and wonderful bits and dates about Natchez, slavery a nd the few who survived .

http://www.agt.net/public/dgarneau/indian16.htm

[clintonplatt]

Vikings were also refugees

Vikings = Scandinavian young men in boats who escaped parental supervision, raided and killed, and stole from coastal communities from AD 600 to 1100. Not to be mistaken for Norse annexing invaders, lawmakers, traders and settlers.

As mentioned in the report;

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/25/2/301

"Excavating Past Population Structures by Surname-Based Sampling: The Genetic Legacy of the Vikings in Northwest England"

The Vikings/Scandinavians were also refugees.

Regards,
C

[Eki]

They bathed fully once a week on "wash day"

Yes, that was on Saturdays. That's why Saturday is called Laugardagur in Icelandic and Lauantai in Finnish. They come from Old Norse Laugardagr, which meant "Washing day".

[Johnserrat]

The term "viking" remains controversial in terms of its origins. A very interesting article on the subject can be found at:

http://dpc.uba.uva.nl/cgi/t/text/get-pdf?c=tvs;idno=2402a01

There is some evidence that vikings did not come from nordic countries alone. On my mother's native island in The Netherlands, a viking hoard was found and the main church has a separate entrance for northmen (legend has it that the low doors forced the pagan northmen to bow to the altar!). It is my understanding that there may have been belgian vikings as well that plundered the UK.

John

ps. the attached "Dutch Viking" clip is kind of amusing:

http://blocklandvideos.info/2007/11/11/sven-the-modern-dutch-viking/

[J Man]

Very interesting article. A few days ago I ran across a story (probably on this forum) that stated that, unlike the stereotype, vikings were far more hygienic and well kept than the image that was portrayed of them. They bathed fully once a week on "wash day" and washed the face daily. The most humorous thing I found was that apparently the norse men and women weren't naturally blond but used specially made soaps to bleach their hair blond.

You are correct on this CWF. I remember watching a documentary before where it said that English women actually preferred the Viking/Nordic men when they arrived in England because the combed their hair, washed regularly and changed their clothes often. Now that sure is a lot different than the standard Viking stereotype

[purple flowers]

As mentioned in the report;

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/25/2/301

"Excavating Past Population Structures by Surname-Based Sampling: The Genetic Legacy of the Vikings in Northwest England"

The Vikings/Scandinavians were also refugees.

Regards,
C

well Prince Maddox story tells this same kind of idea.. 0f.. I guess he brought like 10 ships of people here. with lots of interaction between cherokee and then then they headed out and at least part or a few of them became Mandan.
lots of different versions of what is remembered of the story and any one interested should read all of them .
if you google
prince MAddox Oconostota + peggy
( then ad Mandan or "white indians" " welsh indians" TO THE ABOVE )
I think there is one other spelling of Maduc that can be searched also.

[derinos]

[QUOTE=purple flowers]well Prince Maddox story tells this same kind of idea.. 0f.. I guess he brought like 10 ships of people here. with lots of interaction between cherokee and then then they headed out and at least part or a few of them became Mandan.
lots of different versions of what is remembered of the story and any one interested should read all of them .
if you google
prince MAddox Oconostota + peggy
( then ad Mandan or "white indians" " welsh indians" TO THE ABOVE )
I think there is one other spelling of Maduc that can be searched also.


Comment: The Welsh spelling is Madoc or Madog depending on the grammatical case. The usual English or US spelling is Madock, Maddock or Maddox. The reputed date is 11th Century, and a (claimed to be contemporary ) poem goes:

"Gwel' yn cychwyn
Tair ar ddeg
O longau bach
Ar forau teg."

See them leaving,
Just thirteen
Of little ships,
This morning keen.

Thomas Jefferson, (who could speak Welsh among many other tongues), and sought out contact with our native nations, is one of those reponsible for the claim that the Mandan language was part Welsh.