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  • Germanic Wends

    The Wends who live in northern Germany are apparently descended from Slavic tribes.
    But, does anyone know the genetic makeup of the Wends living in Germany today?
    What are their haplogroups?
    Are they indecipherable from the rest of the German population now? Ie, do they have the same various genes occurring in similar frequency as the rest of the Germanic Germans or are they still very distinct even to this day and carry their ancestor's genes? Or have they intermixed so much with the rest of the "Germanic" Germans that it doesnt make a difference.
    I know that Hitler and the Nazi's did not have any problems associating and incorporating the Wends as part of the Aryan peoples...

  • #2
    Someone is working on that.

    First description of A Unique Genetic Isolate of Slavic Origin and possibilities for GWA studies of complex disorders with 500K technology.

    P. Kovacs1, A. Tonjes1,I. Prokopenko2, D. Brocklebank2, Y. Bottcher1, E. Zeggini2, R. Rayner2, J. Halbritter1, F. Pettersson2, M. Scholz1, M.I. McCarthy2, M. Loeffler1, M. Stumvoll1. 1) University of Leipzig, Germany; 2) WTCHG, University of Oxford, UK.

    The study of population isolates with limited genetic variability is predicted to be especially powerful for genome wide association studies offering increased LD and more homogeneous genetic and environmental background. Current technology can offer the opportunity of characterisation of such populations with 500k chip. Here we present a new isolated population of Slavonic origin - the Sorbs of Eastern Saxony, who have been culturally and politically isolated in the small area, lived in an ancient social order consisting of large, extended families for centuries and have a population of ~15,000 individuals living in 10 integrated villages today. External genetic influence is therefore not expected in the population, rendering it a very attractive population for genetic study. We have recruited and extensively phenotyped 1000 individuals. Reconstruction of genealogies is on-going based on church records. Phenotypic data containing laboratory blood tests, anthropometric measures, past medical history of the individual and up to third-degree relatives with focus on diabetes, obesity, hypertension, dyslipidemia, gallstones and goitre is available. All individuals are currently being genotyped using the 500K-Affymetrix-Chips. Based on this data we evaluate the extent of LD and haplotype diversity, and performa population comparative analysis using HapMap and WTCCC samples. We describe the population using inbreeding coefficient, homozygosity measures and estimation of founding gene pool. Our project offers a unique opportunity to explore the advantages and statistical challenges presented by the study of population isolates, and to use recently developed methodology to incorporated information on relatedness into association analysis.

    That's from the abstracts of the THE AMERICAN SOCIETY OF HUMAN GENETICS 57th Annual Meeting October 23–27, 2007 • San Diego, California

    I can't recover the URL at the moment.

    Jim

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    • #3
      Originally posted by Hando
      The Wends who live in northern Germany are apparently descended from Slavic tribes.
      But, does anyone know the genetic makeup of the Wends living in Germany today?
      What are their haplogroups?
      Are they indecipherable from the rest of the German population now? Ie, do they have the same various genes occurring in similar frequency as the rest of the Germanic Germans or are they still very distinct even to this day and carry their ancestor's genes? Or have they intermixed so much with the rest of the "Germanic" Germans that it doesnt make a difference.
      I know that Hitler and the Nazi's did not have any problems associating and incorporating the Wends as part of the Aryan peoples...
      My guess is that the Slavonic Wends were probably mostly R1a1.

      German y-dna is about 40-50% R1b1c, 25% I, and 15-20% R1a1, with the remainder made up of various other European y-haplogroups, like E3b, J and G.

      R1a1 is mostly concentrated in the East, although that is changing somewhat, as E. Germans and Slavs move west. Likewise, the frequency of R1b1c is higher in Western Germany.

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      • #4
        Rhey're all mixed up together

        The West Slavs and Germanic tribes of the North German Plain have mixed themselves together over the centuries. Berlin was originally a slavic fishing village, for example. It is really nit-picking, when trying to genetically separate the Wends/Sorbs from the surrounding mixed-haplogroup Germans, in my opinion.

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        • #5
          Thanks to both of you. I always wondered if there were any significant differences between the Wends and the rest of the Germanic population.
          But as you both say, the differences must be negligible.
          I always assumed the R1b1c rate would be larger.
          Where can I look at the statstics and where can I find out more about the intermixing history between the Wends and the Germanic tribes?
          Thanks

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          • #6
            addendum to my msg

            I was told by a German, many years ago when I was stationed in Berlin, that American G.I. turncoats were sent to live in Bautzen, which is smack dab in the middle of Sorb territory. To the extent that those ex-Americans married into the local population, if what I was told was true, there would now be added confusion in the DNA among the rare and endangered Sorbs.

            U5b2 & Ra1a

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            • #7
              Originally posted by PDHOTLEN
              I was told by a German, many years ago when I was stationed in Berlin, that American G.I. turncoats were sent to live in Bautzen, which is smack dab in the middle of Sorb territory. To the extent that those ex-Americans married into the local population, if what I was told was true, there would now be added confusion in the DNA among the rare and endangered Sorbs.

              U5b2 & Ra1a
              As well as the Wends/Sorbs in the Cottbus/Bautzen area, and any remaining Old Prussian Slavic DNA, let's hear it for the Kashubians in the Gda´nsk/Danzig area. Günter Grass's mother was Kashubian. And many east Germans have Slavic surnames. Some may come from recent Polish ancestors, some may be from older populations.

              Harry

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              • #8
                suspicious ancestor

                My father's mother's mother was German (descent) in Wisconsin. But her last name was Bilsie. It looks like it was derived from a Polish, or etc. name to me, although there are/were Bilsies in Germany.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by hdw
                  As well as the Wends/Sorbs in the Cottbus/Bautzen area, and any remaining Old Prussian Slavic DNA, let's hear it for the Kashubians in the Gda´nsk/Danzig area. Günter Grass's mother was Kashubian. And many east Germans have Slavic surnames. Some may come from recent Polish ancestors, some may be from older populations.

                  Harry
                  So Germans with names like Sattowicz have Slavic ancestry somewhere?

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                  • #10
                    lots of Slavic name traces

                    Some names, such as ending in "ow" are supposedly also Slavic origin (seen in place names in Berlin). Of course with Polish-looking names, we could also be dealing with the Jewish/Yiddish sub-culture.

                    There was something odd with my grandmother (Bilsie), in that her brother/cousin, who owned the Bilsie Ambulance Company, acted like she was disowned; I think they were Catholic. I hope I am not insulting any distant relatives by having said this; since I really don't know any facts. I was about ten years old when I got that impression.

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