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R1b Haplotype 35 In The British Isles

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  • R1b Haplotype 35 In The British Isles

    Hello Fellow DNA Enthusiasts,

    I am paternally descended from the Anglo-Scottish Border Clan, the Elliotts. My branch of this family apparently originated in Cumbria, moved to The Borders, and eventually found its way to the Donegal Bay area of Northern Ireland in the early 1600's.

    My Y-DNA haplotype is (supposedly) R1b, but is nonetheless very rare. The markers are as follows:

    393 = 12
    390 = 24
    19 = 14
    391 = 12
    385a = 11
    385b = 15
    426 = 12
    388 = 12
    439 = 12
    389i = 13
    392 = 13
    389ii = 30

    I have found no exact matches in any database anywhere, no one step mutations in either the REO database or the haplogroup database of FTDNA, and only five one step mutations (out of nine markers) in the entire Y-STR database. Moreover, the mutations on the Y-STR "matches" are on markers that mutate less frequently than most, and the geographical locales of these matches are too scattered to point to a specific geographical origin.

    My FTDNA two-step mutations are as follows:

    Hungary 1
    Iceland 1
    Russia (Native Siberian) 5

    Rather odd relations for a Scots-Irish person, don't you think?

    I gathered up all 1 or 2 step mutation matches in the Y-STR database, and calculated the ten closest haplotypes among them on the basis of both the number of steps away and the mutation rate of each marker that differed. The regions with the highest proportion of hits within this group were as follows:

    Belarus/Ukraine
    Hungary
    Romania
    France
    Norway
    Portugal (BTW: don't think "Galician Celt" here, think Greek, Suevi and Visigoth)

    Please note that, if you accept "Belarus/Ukraine" as a stand-in for "Russia (Native Siberian)", and "Norway" as a stand-in for "Iceland", the Y-STR and FTDNA match profiles are remarkably consistent.

    Subsequently, I read about an eastern variant of the R1b haplogroup known as Haplotype 35. On the basic twelve marker level, this haplotype resembles AMH but is characterized by a 393 marker value of 12. Just like mine, except that mine is even more deviant, with a 391 marker value of 12 as well.

    Haplotype 35 has been theorized to represent an R1b population that took refuge from the Ice Age in the Balkans, rather than in Iberia, and then migrated northward into Central Europe, and eastward into Anatolia, the Caucasus and the Black Sea region, after the glaciers receded. Indeed, of the very few instances of my basic six marker haplotype (14-12-24-12-13-12) that I've seen anywhere, I have found a third of them among Armenians and Georgians.

    Now, suppose I ignore, for the moment, the likes of someone like Bryan Sykes, who insists that any R1b in Britain has always been in Britain and could never possibly have come from anywhere else. Let me suppose, for the sake of argument, that my R1b is an actual Haplotype 35 and reflects deep ancestry in eastern Europe or western Asia rather than in, say, Wales. How did a Haplotype 35 find its way to the hinterlands of medieval Britain?

    Others have asked this question as well. I believe David Strong, the coordinator of the Strong-Strang-Strange surname project, has identified Haplotype 35 individuals among the descendants of the Donegal Bay Strongs, and has suggested an Asiatic origin. He has also correlated the occurrence of this haplotype in his sample with blood group B, which has its highest frequency in Siberia, Central Asia and northern India and Pakistan.

    I have identified a handful of other possible Haplotype 35 individuals in YBASE, with paternal lines from Scotland, Northwest England and Normandy.

    I have my own theories about how Haplotype 35 may have found its way to these regions. Heruls, Rugians or other Baltic area Germanic tribes may have absorbed it during their sojourns in Hungary and other parts of Southeastern Europe, and brought it with them upon their return to Scandinavia - and then from there to NW England via Normandy or the Hiberno-Norse settlement of the Irish Sea. (Indeed, the ethnicity with the closest distance to "Hungarian" in the Human Races Calculator is "Norwegian".) Or, alternately, Haplotype 35 may have come to Northwest England with the Sarmatian troops at Hadrian's Wall 1800 years ago. Or - and here is another long shot - it arrived in the Scottish Lowlands with the Hungarian retainers of Margaret Atheling, Queen of Scotland. I mean - who knows? Anything is possible.

    I would like to hear from other FTDNA customers of British descent who also exhibit a possible variant of Haplotype 35 - and who, like me, have been confused and tantalized by an unexpected number of Y-DNA matches to Hungarians, Siberians, Mongolians, Uyghurs, Armenians, Kashmiris, Greeks and Poles.

    Perhaps we can compare notes, resolve certain issues that have perplexed us, and enlighten one another generally.

  • #2
    Dys 393 = 12

    Hello to All..
    First post and newly tested by FTDNA...
    It seems that my Y-DNA haplotype is somewhat rare and I'm looking for some help in what direction I should point myself.
    Both my parents are Irish born (Connacht) and I can trace the families to the early 1800's in Ireland. What I am is;

    393 = 12
    390 = 24
    19 = 14
    391 = 11
    385a=11
    385b=16
    426 = 12
    388 = 12
    439 = 11
    389i= 13
    392 = 13
    389ii=29

    I have not found any exact matches but have come close, as with James Elliott.
    I read some material on my inclusion as a possible Haplotype 35 as I match on 8 values.

    Any thoughts as to what groups I might take a look at?

    Thanks, Jim Kenny

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Ciotog21
      I have not found any exact matches but have come close, as with James Elliott.
      I read some material on my inclusion as a possible Haplotype 35 as I match on 8 values.

      Any thoughts as to what groups I might take a look at?

      Thanks, Jim Kenny
      Jim,

      It's been speculated by some of the R1b "gurus" on the Genealogy-DNA e-mail list that I may be R1b ht35. This is because of my Sicilian paternal line origin and the unusual nature of my haplotype. However, I'm not sure about that, since my 393 is the normal R1b value of 13, not the 12 mentioned above.

      I am awaiting test results from both EthnoAncestry and DNA-Fingerprint to further investigate the background of my R1b ancestors. If you are fairly sure that your haplogroup is R1b, there's good news and bad news. The bad news is that Family Tree DNA does not offer deep clade tests for R1b, as they do with several other European haplogroups. The good news is that EthnoAncestry does offer such tests for R1b. In fact, they are doing groundbreaking work in the area of R1b SNPs. They discovered 4 or 5 new R1b SNPs late last year and offer tests for those. I'm now waiting for my result for the S21 SNP, which is one of the new SNPs. Once they have a database of positive and negative results for the various new SNPs, it will help individuals and population geneticists learn much more about deep ancestry and ancestors' migrations among people who are in the R1b haplogroup.

      I suggest that you consider testing with EthnoAncestry. Take a look at this posting on the Genealogy-DNA e-mail list today by the president of EthnoAncestry: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...-02/1138992265 In it, he announces that they now have 5 positive results for another new SNP, S28, and offers a preliminary hypothesis about its origin.

      Mike Maddi
      Co-administrator of the Sicily Project

      P.S. I see from your profile that you are in Houston. Me too.
      Last edited by MMaddi; 3 February 2006, 01:53 PM.

      Comment


      • #4
        The Elliotts - in Sicily

        Dear Jvance_Elliott,

        It was good to see your strs.

        My r1b strs is below:

        DYS393 = 13
        DYS19/394 = 14
        DYS391 = 11
        DYS439 = 12
        DYS389-1 = 13
        DYS389-2 = 16/29
        DYS388 = 12
        DYS390 = 24
        DYS426 = 12
        DYS385a = 11
        DYS385b = 14
        DYS392 = 13

        It is very close to mine. We are Celtic cousins

        Cheers,
        John

        Comment


        • #5
          24 at marker 390 - Aliots in Normandy - Aliotos in Sicily

          R1b Ancient Spanish origins - Basques (Ancient Iberians)
          Celt Iberian

          The Irish Q Celtic - 24 at marker 390

          Sicilian R1b3 - 24 at marker 390

          Are the Basques both the first natives of Ireland and of Sicily?

          Is this why we see biological similarities between Irish and Sicilians - due to our ancient Spanish origins?

          Or could be to be due the Scots-Irish Elliott Clan going to Sicily?

          Aliots in Normandy - and Aliotos in Sicily - descended from the Norman knights who followed Robert Guiscard to Italy.

          Comment


          • #6
            some people might have just ran to the Hills. not everyone was a Gunning knight..

            I too have the 393=12 and was suggested to be R1B

            (where did you read the stuff about Haplotype 35?)

            393....=12
            390.....=24
            19 .....=14
            391.....=10
            385a...=11
            426.....=12
            388.....=12
            439.....=12
            389-1..=13
            392.....=13
            389-2..=29
            458.....=18
            459a.....=9
            459b...=10
            455.....=11
            454.....=11
            447.....=25
            437....=15
            448.....=19
            464a...=15
            464b...=15
            464c..=16
            464d..=16

            Comment


            • #7
              Links for ht 35 discussion

              Originally posted by M.O'Connor
              some people might have just ran to the Hills. not everyone was a Gunning knight..

              I too have the 393=12 and was suggested to be R1B

              (where did you read the stuff about Haplotype 35?)
              Here are a couple of links where the theory about R1b ht 35 is discussed:

              http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read...-09/1127768064

              http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb....an-reivers.htm

              Of course, any theorizing about ht 35 (which is normally found in Iraq, Turkey and parts of the Balkans) accounting for R1b's in the British Isles is merely that, theorizing. But it certainly is interesting and worth looking into.

              Mike

              Comment


              • #8
                I brought up the question before of 393=12 and Hadrian's Wall.

                It was suggested to me that (maybe) there was simply a mutation change from 13 to 12 which might have happened in my generation, or the 4 generations before me, leading to Ireland.

                Unless I find some O'Connor People in ireland with 393=12 the question hangs in the air.
                Last edited by M.O'Connor; 5 February 2006, 01:17 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Further to R1b Haplotype 35 in the British Isles

                  I've received the results of my SNP Deep test and I'm re-classified to R1b1c. The SNP 's are; M124-, M157-, M17-,M198-, M56-, M64.2-, M87- M173+, M207+, M269+, M343+, P25+, SRY10831.2+.
                  I've been reading about this HT 35 & HT 15 in the faint hope that I might find a match somewhere for this DNA I'm carrying around and even with a blood type of B+ I can't make a reach to the Highlands.
                  My family have been entrenched in eastern county Galway for the past 350 years.
                  I am waiting for FT to complete the Mtdna side of my picture and then I'm going to zip up my pocket where I keep the loose change and watch the world for awhile.

                  Jim Kenny

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    HT 35 & HT 15

                    Jim Kenny

                    Are you HT 35 or HT 15 and how can you tell?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Ciotog21
                      I've received the results of my SNP Deep test and I'm re-classified to R1b1c. The SNP 's are; M124-, M157-, M17-,M198-, M56-, M64.2-, M87- M173+, M207+, M269+, M343+, P25+, SRY10831.2+.
                      <snip>

                      Jim Kenny
                      Jim, you are the second person I've seen in a day with these SNP results. I have some questions. What test did you order from FTDNA? What test did they say they were giving you? Has anyone noticed that all the SNPs point toward R1b1c, except for SRY10831.2+, which I thought was an indicator for R1a?

                      Bill Hurst

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Same results.

                        I also have recently received my results from FtDNA and have been labeled R1b1c.

                        My paternal line comes from North Devon, back to the 1760's, yes I know its not exactly 10,000 years ago!

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          ...forgot to say...

                          ...sorry forgot to say I have the same results as Jim.
                          I asked for the Backbone SNP test and said they would give me the Deep R1a/R2 Clade test.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Haplotype 35 and 15

                            Genny...Thanks for the note...As close as I can figure it from reading posts and following the various url's, if your
                            DYS393=12 you are probably classified as a Hap 35 and if you are DYS393=13 you come in as a Hap15.
                            But all this is theorizing as pointed out by Mike Maddi and others.
                            As I said, my numbers are;
                            393=12
                            390=24
                            19 =14
                            391=11
                            385a=11
                            385b=16
                            426=12
                            388=12
                            439=11
                            389i=13
                            389ii=29
                            392=13

                            I've been re=classified as a R1b1c with positive marks ;
                            +M207,+M173,+M343,+P25,+M269,+SRY10831.2
                            Negative marks are; -M124,-M157,-M17,-M198,-M56, and -M64.2.

                            Go to ;
                            Http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/rea...5-09/1127768064
                            Http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb...ian-reivers.htm

                            These are referenced above in this thread and will lead you to others.
                            I wish you luck...Jim Kenny.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              SNP Results

                              Jim, you are the second person I've seen in a day with these SNP results. I have some questions. What test did you order from FTDNA? What test did they say they were giving you? Has anyone noticed that all the SNPs point toward R1b1c, except for SRY10831.2+, which I thought was an indicator for R1a?

                              Bill Hurst

                              Hi Bill..Back in late January 2006, I ordered FT's Backbone SNP test attempting to confirm my Rib classification. On February 1, I received notification as;
                              "However, as part of our R1a/R2 Deep Clade test, our lab is also testing for R1b1c, as well as R1b. Since this can give you a more refined result than the Backbone SNP test, we have switched your test to the Deep R1aR/2 Clade test."

                              I received my results last Friday, March 3.

                              As far as the significance of SRY10831.2 , I am unaware.

                              Hope this answers your question....Jim.

                              Comment

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