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Hello Fellow DNA Enthusiasts,
I am paternally descended from the Anglo-Scottish Border Clan, the Elliotts. My branch of this family apparently originated in Cumbria, moved to The Borders, and eventually found its way to the Donegal Bay area of Northern Ireland in the early 1600's.
My Y-DNA haplotype is (supposedly) R1b, but is nonetheless very rare. The markers are as follows:
393 = 12
390 = 24
19 = 14
391 = 12
385a = 11
385b = 15
426 = 12
388 = 12
439 = 12
389i = 13
392 = 13
389ii = 30
I have found no exact matches in any database anywhere, no one step mutations in either the REO database or the haplogroup database of FTDNA, and only five one step mutations (out of nine markers) in the entire Y-STR database. Moreover, the mutations on the Y-STR "matches" are on markers that mutate less frequently than most, and the geographical locales of these matches are too scattered to point to a specific geographical origin.
My FTDNA two-step mutations are as follows:
Hungary 1
Iceland 1
Russia (Native Siberian) 5
Rather odd relations for a Scots-Irish person, don't you think?
I gathered up all 1 or 2 step mutation matches in the Y-STR database, and calculated the ten closest haplotypes among them on the basis of both the number of steps away and the mutation rate of each marker that differed. The regions with the highest proportion of hits within this group were as follows:
Belarus/Ukraine
Hungary
Romania
France
Norway
Portugal (BTW: don't think "Galician Celt" here, think Greek, Suevi and Visigoth)
Please note that, if you accept "Belarus/Ukraine" as a stand-in for "Russia (Native Siberian)", and "Norway" as a stand-in for "Iceland", the Y-STR and FTDNA match profiles are remarkably consistent.
Subsequently, I read about an eastern variant of the R1b haplogroup known as Haplotype 35. On the basic twelve marker level, this haplotype resembles AMH but is characterized by a 393 marker value of 12. Just like mine, except that mine is even more deviant, with a 391 marker value of 12 as well.
Haplotype 35 has been theorized to represent an R1b population that took refuge from the Ice Age in the Balkans, rather than in Iberia, and then migrated northward into Central Europe, and eastward into Anatolia, the Caucasus and the Black Sea region, after the glaciers receded. Indeed, of the very few instances of my basic six marker haplotype (14-12-24-12-13-12) that I've seen anywhere, I have found a third of them among Armenians and Georgians.
Now, suppose I ignore, for the moment, the likes of someone like Bryan Sykes, who insists that any R1b in Britain has always been in Britain and could never possibly have come from anywhere else. Let me suppose, for the sake of argument, that my R1b is an actual Haplotype 35 and reflects deep ancestry in eastern Europe or western Asia rather than in, say, Wales. How did a Haplotype 35 find its way to the hinterlands of medieval Britain?
Others have asked this question as well. I believe David Strong, the coordinator of the Strong-Strang-Strange surname project, has identified Haplotype 35 individuals among the descendants of the Donegal Bay Strongs, and has suggested an Asiatic origin. He has also correlated the occurrence of this haplotype in his sample with blood group B, which has its highest frequency in Siberia, Central Asia and northern India and Pakistan.
I have identified a handful of other possible Haplotype 35 individuals in YBASE, with paternal lines from Scotland, Northwest England and Normandy.
I have my own theories about how Haplotype 35 may have found its way to these regions. Heruls, Rugians or other Baltic area Germanic tribes may have absorbed it during their sojourns in Hungary and other parts of Southeastern Europe, and brought it with them upon their return to Scandinavia - and then from there to NW England via Normandy or the Hiberno-Norse settlement of the Irish Sea. (Indeed, the ethnicity with the closest distance to "Hungarian" in the Human Races Calculator is "Norwegian".) Or, alternately, Haplotype 35 may have come to Northwest England with the Sarmatian troops at Hadrian's Wall 1800 years ago. Or - and here is another long shot - it arrived in the Scottish Lowlands with the Hungarian retainers of Margaret Atheling, Queen of Scotland. I mean - who knows? Anything is possible.
I would like to hear from other FTDNA customers of British descent who also exhibit a possible variant of Haplotype 35 - and who, like me, have been confused and tantalized by an unexpected number of Y-DNA matches to Hungarians, Siberians, Mongolians, Uyghurs, Armenians, Kashmiris, Greeks and Poles.
Perhaps we can compare notes, resolve certain issues that have perplexed us, and enlighten one another generally.
I am paternally descended from the Anglo-Scottish Border Clan, the Elliotts. My branch of this family apparently originated in Cumbria, moved to The Borders, and eventually found its way to the Donegal Bay area of Northern Ireland in the early 1600's.
My Y-DNA haplotype is (supposedly) R1b, but is nonetheless very rare. The markers are as follows:
393 = 12
390 = 24
19 = 14
391 = 12
385a = 11
385b = 15
426 = 12
388 = 12
439 = 12
389i = 13
392 = 13
389ii = 30
I have found no exact matches in any database anywhere, no one step mutations in either the REO database or the haplogroup database of FTDNA, and only five one step mutations (out of nine markers) in the entire Y-STR database. Moreover, the mutations on the Y-STR "matches" are on markers that mutate less frequently than most, and the geographical locales of these matches are too scattered to point to a specific geographical origin.
My FTDNA two-step mutations are as follows:
Hungary 1
Iceland 1
Russia (Native Siberian) 5
Rather odd relations for a Scots-Irish person, don't you think?
I gathered up all 1 or 2 step mutation matches in the Y-STR database, and calculated the ten closest haplotypes among them on the basis of both the number of steps away and the mutation rate of each marker that differed. The regions with the highest proportion of hits within this group were as follows:
Belarus/Ukraine
Hungary
Romania
France
Norway
Portugal (BTW: don't think "Galician Celt" here, think Greek, Suevi and Visigoth)
Please note that, if you accept "Belarus/Ukraine" as a stand-in for "Russia (Native Siberian)", and "Norway" as a stand-in for "Iceland", the Y-STR and FTDNA match profiles are remarkably consistent.
Subsequently, I read about an eastern variant of the R1b haplogroup known as Haplotype 35. On the basic twelve marker level, this haplotype resembles AMH but is characterized by a 393 marker value of 12. Just like mine, except that mine is even more deviant, with a 391 marker value of 12 as well.
Haplotype 35 has been theorized to represent an R1b population that took refuge from the Ice Age in the Balkans, rather than in Iberia, and then migrated northward into Central Europe, and eastward into Anatolia, the Caucasus and the Black Sea region, after the glaciers receded. Indeed, of the very few instances of my basic six marker haplotype (14-12-24-12-13-12) that I've seen anywhere, I have found a third of them among Armenians and Georgians.
Now, suppose I ignore, for the moment, the likes of someone like Bryan Sykes, who insists that any R1b in Britain has always been in Britain and could never possibly have come from anywhere else. Let me suppose, for the sake of argument, that my R1b is an actual Haplotype 35 and reflects deep ancestry in eastern Europe or western Asia rather than in, say, Wales. How did a Haplotype 35 find its way to the hinterlands of medieval Britain?
Others have asked this question as well. I believe David Strong, the coordinator of the Strong-Strang-Strange surname project, has identified Haplotype 35 individuals among the descendants of the Donegal Bay Strongs, and has suggested an Asiatic origin. He has also correlated the occurrence of this haplotype in his sample with blood group B, which has its highest frequency in Siberia, Central Asia and northern India and Pakistan.
I have identified a handful of other possible Haplotype 35 individuals in YBASE, with paternal lines from Scotland, Northwest England and Normandy.
I have my own theories about how Haplotype 35 may have found its way to these regions. Heruls, Rugians or other Baltic area Germanic tribes may have absorbed it during their sojourns in Hungary and other parts of Southeastern Europe, and brought it with them upon their return to Scandinavia - and then from there to NW England via Normandy or the Hiberno-Norse settlement of the Irish Sea. (Indeed, the ethnicity with the closest distance to "Hungarian" in the Human Races Calculator is "Norwegian".) Or, alternately, Haplotype 35 may have come to Northwest England with the Sarmatian troops at Hadrian's Wall 1800 years ago. Or - and here is another long shot - it arrived in the Scottish Lowlands with the Hungarian retainers of Margaret Atheling, Queen of Scotland. I mean - who knows? Anything is possible.
I would like to hear from other FTDNA customers of British descent who also exhibit a possible variant of Haplotype 35 - and who, like me, have been confused and tantalized by an unexpected number of Y-DNA matches to Hungarians, Siberians, Mongolians, Uyghurs, Armenians, Kashmiris, Greeks and Poles.
Perhaps we can compare notes, resolve certain issues that have perplexed us, and enlighten one another generally.
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