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  • I'm Ashkenazic Jewish, but I'm Haplogroup H?

    Finally got my test results back, wooo! First off, let me thank FamilyTreeDNA for making such a cool product and service available.

    Anyway, being female, I obviously couldn't order any of the Y chromosome testing, which is a bit of shame, since it seems like the guys have all the fun tests available to them because of the faster mutation rate. Oh, well.

    But I do have a question: as an Ashkenazic Jew whose most-remote matrilinieal ancestress (7-8 generations ago) came from Poland, why does my mDNA show that I'm Haplogroup H--which 30% of Europe has-- and have 29 matches to England, 15 to Ireland, and 15 to (non-Ashkenazic) Germany?

    In short, is my great-great-great-....-grandmother a shiksa? :-)

    And does anyone have further information on Haplogroup H, or mutation 16519C, or could point me to a website or other online resource where I could do some more reading on it?

    Also, I myself am listed in the database as having my most-remote matrilineal female ancestor from Poland and my most-remote patrilineal ancestor from Ukraine. How do I update both fields so that they'll include the comment line "(Ashkenazi)" that I see in some of the results?

    Thanks in advance for any help.


    - Brooke Schreier Ganz
    Los Angeles, CA

  • #2
    Yes, it is possible that you have a maternal ancestress who is a shiksa. It could be a lot older than that, though, long before the time of Abraham when nobody was Jewish. There simply isn't enough information yet to fine-tune the haplogroups as much as we all would like. I for example am a "J", which is neareastern in origin (back 10,000 years). Every month they find that this haplogroup, which was thought to be rare in Europe, is more and more common. As the database grows, so do the number of "J" people. You may find that the number of Jewish "H" people grows as more Jewish females are tested.

    Bennett Greenspan will add Ashkenazik to your MRCO. Send him an email.

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: I'm Ashkenazic Jewish, but I'm Haplogroup H?

      Originally posted by Asparagirl
      Finally got my test results back, wooo! First off, let me thank FamilyTreeDNA for making such a cool product and service available.

      Anyway, being female, I obviously couldn't order any of the Y chromosome testing, which is a bit of shame, since it seems like the guys have all the fun tests available to them because of the faster mutation rate. Oh, well.

      But I do have a question: as an Ashkenazic Jew whose most-remote matrilinieal ancestress (7-8 generations ago) came from Poland, why does my mDNA show that I'm Haplogroup H--which 30% of Europe has-- and have 29 matches to England, 15 to Ireland, and 15 to (non-Ashkenazic) Germany?

      In short, is my great-great-great-....-grandmother a shiksa? :-)

      And does anyone have further information on Haplogroup H, or mutation 16519C, or could point me to a website or other online resource where I could do some more reading on it?

      Also, I myself am listed in the database as having my most-remote matrilineal female ancestor from Poland and my most-remote patrilineal ancestor from Ukraine. How do I update both fields so that they'll include the comment line "(Ashkenazi)" that I see in some of the results?

      Thanks in advance for any help.


      - Brooke Schreier Ganz
      Los Angeles, CA
      Hi Brooke,
      I have just found a new paper in the FT DNA library, which is on Jewish mtDNA.
      http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/Beh...04%20mtDNA.pdf

      For people of Polish Jewish descent
      37 % are haplotype K (64% of a sequence not seen in europeans)
      13% are haplotype H
      10% are haplotype J
      5% are haplotype N1b
      35% other haplotypes

      What does this mean ? well, other than the fact that the data shows a bottlenecking (ie. all mtdna is descended from a few founding women alive 100 generations ago), its hard to say. Some researchers seem to think that the early Ashkenazi populations were founded by Jewish men, who married European women, but that seems a bit strange to me (especially given that the maternal inheritance of Jewish status would have started by then).
      We really don't know what the pre-diaspora Hebrew mtDNA was like, especially given that back then it was all based on paternal descent.
      Basicallly, your mtDNA ancestor was likely Jewish 100 generations ago, and before then - who knows?

      Comment


      • #4
        Ashkenazic Jewish, but Hapolgroup H

        Brooke

        You are one of my "matches." I took the mtDNA test and found that I have a lot of Ashkenazi showed up in the test result. I am not Jewish. My mother's parents came from England. I would interested to learn more about the H group and 16519C mutation and what all this means!

        Jan

        Comment


        • #5
          Brooke,

          It is a known fact that many CONVERTS came into the Jewish people. Whether J is the only haplogroup of the origional mtDNA of the Jewish people is Very disputable, 12 tribes, each with a few wives could make for a Very intreasting mtDNA make up, don't you think?

          It is safe to assume, if you grew up in an Orthodox Jewish community, had a Shomrei Shabbath home, that your ancestors also followed halacha and converted any women they married. That would make your Female ancestor like a Bath yisroel, and certainly not a "Shiktza."


          Shalom from the City of Jerusalem,

          IZZY

          Comment


          • #6
            Haplotype H7 16519c

            I am also Haplotype H with a mutation of 16519c. I am not Jewish either.
            I have recently had a Haplotype refinement test that puts me in sub-clade Haplotype H7. Some of my anonymous mathches are Ashkenzi, but most seem to be English, German,Irish,Scottish.
            I was hoping the Haplotype refinement test would give me a clearer picture of Haplotype H (pinpointing regions).
            Also, how can you find percentages on your mydna results? My results and matches just give me an overall veiw of others in the world who match my haplotype and mutations.

            Candace M. Corthell

            Comment


            • #7
              The 16519c is found in a lot of different mtDNA Haplotype. Have to remember the first lady they started locating the mutation didn't have this mutation. So it turning up all over the place.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Asparagirl
                Finally got my test results back, wooo! First off, let me thank FamilyTreeDNA for making such a cool product and service available.

                Anyway, being female, I obviously couldn't order any of the Y chromosome testing, which is a bit of shame, since it seems like the guys have all the fun tests available to them because of the faster mutation rate. Oh, well.

                But I do have a question: as an Ashkenazic Jew whose most-remote matrilinieal ancestress (7-8 generations ago) came from Poland, why does my mDNA show that I'm Haplogroup H--which 30% of Europe has-- and have 29 matches to England, 15 to Ireland, and 15 to (non-Ashkenazic) Germany?

                In short, is my great-great-great-....-grandmother a shiksa? :-)

                And does anyone have further information on Haplogroup H, or mutation 16519C, or could point me to a website or other online resource where I could do some more reading on it?

                Also, I myself am listed in the database as having my most-remote matrilineal female ancestor from Poland and my most-remote patrilineal ancestor from Ukraine. How do I update both fields so that they'll include the comment line "(Ashkenazi)" that I see in some of the results?

                Thanks in advance for any help.


                - Brooke Schreier Ganz
                Los Angeles, CA

                some time brooke we should get together i am the gggggson of a stone mason in longford ireland documented so why am i E3B i have 50+matches over half are Ashkenazi some (Volozhin)-Levite (Divin) (Bialystok) maybe our familes knew each other sometime

                we have been in mass. since 1820s chelsea was where we originally came to

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by whitkeen
                  Yes, it is possible that you have a maternal ancestress who is a shiksa. It could be a lot older than that, though, long before the time of Abraham when nobody was Jewish. There simply isn't enough information yet to fine-tune the haplogroups as much as we all would like. I for example am a "J", which is neareastern in origin (back 10,000 years). Every month they find that this haplogroup, which was thought to be rare in Europe, is more and more common. As the database grows, so do the number of "J" people. You may find that the number of Jewish "H" people grows as more Jewish females are tested.

                  Bennett Greenspan will add Ashkenazik to your MRCO. Send him an email.
                  or it could of been when the keltoi crossed the caucusian mts and migrated west to be the keltic nations. this much more likely at 600 bc

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Shiksa

                    Just a question, I was interested in this original post because of my H7 haplotype and many Ashkenazi matches. I wasn't sure what a Shiksa meant, so I looked it up..here is what I found :
                    Shiksa and Shaygetz are the Yiddish derivative of the respective
                    feminine and masculine Hebrew words for something unclean, dirty. The
                    appellations are customarily applied to gentiles who do things
                    inimical to Jewish interests, such as vandalizing Jewish buildings,
                    robbing Jewish kids of their lunch money, or becoming romantically
                    involved with Jews :-). The root is "sheketz", which refers to house
                    rodents and lizards. They impart ritual impurity, and therefore the
                    term lends itself to the same kind of idea. Some have taken to using
                    the term to refer to Christian women in general. If Christians were
                    using the term against Jews in English, they would be saying "Filthy
                    Jews" or "Dirty Jews", and we Jews would rightly be offended. Hence,
                    use of these terms should really be avoided; it is insulting and
                    inappropriate, even if no bad intent was behind the usage. It is
                    always better to use neutral, less pejorative (judgemental) terms,
                    such as non-Jew or Christian.

                    Note: In Israel, shaygetz is sometimes used to refer to a misbehaving
                    child.

                    Note: There are other words for non-Jewish women, "nachriah", and
                    "goyah", that are more properly used in less judgemental
                    Knowing what I now know of the word, I take offense to it.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Candy, no need to take offense.
                      I read the whole thread and the word was not posted in a pejorative way, in the way that you compared to "dirty Jew".
                      I don't know where you looked for the explanation for the word "Shikza", but I can assure you that the way it has been used is as "non-Jewish". That's all it is.
                      There are many words that people use in our daily lives, that if we looked in the thesaurus, we probably would be terrified. But like everything in life, words also need to be taken according to the context. And the context here was not pejorative.
                      Max Blankfeld
                      Vice-President and COO @ Family Tree DNA
                      A Gene by Gene Company

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well,the word Shiksa It is defined in every single dictionary as a derogatory term used by Jews to refer to non-Jewish women.
                        I beleive the first post was made by a Jewish woman wondering why she had haplotype H..and wondered if a great great,grandmother was a "Shiksa"
                        I see no where in any dictionary where the word "shiksa" refers to anything else other than in a racist and derogatory way. When a Jewish woman refers to a non-jewish woman with the word "Shiksa"..the word has no other meaning.You say I should not take offense,but I would like to see another dictionary's definition for a different meaning.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Candy, OK, if you took offense anyway, let me ask those who used this word not to use it again.
                          Max Blankfeld
                          Vice-President and COO @ Family Tree DNA
                          A Gene by Gene Company

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            No need to take offense...

                            I'm the poster who opened this thread initially, and I seem to have accidentally started a tempest in a teapot with my offhand characterization of my maternal ancestress as a "shiksa", which Candy feels is a derogatory term. Please believe me when I say that shiska was *not* meant in any mean, negative, or dismissive way, or in any way at all except for the ironic!

                            (Ironic, because Judaism is a matrilineal religion, and so to research your genealogy--up to and including using a service like FamilyTreeDNA to take a DNA test--only find out that your mother's mother's mother's...mother may not have been Jewish at all is kinda funny! And kind of unusual, too, because what Scottish/English/German woman from the Early Middle Ages would choose to convert *to* Judaism? Would her local community even have allowed that?)

                            Anyway, as other posters have said in this thread, "Shiksa", as it's used today, is definitely *not* tied into its uglier etymological sense. I myself only discovered what it "really" meant a few years ago, and I doubt my parents or grandparents know the root word or its history either. Otherwise, why would we all jokingly (and a bit jealously) refer to my blonde-haired blue-eyed sister as having "shiksappeal"? (A made-up word meaning having "shiksa appeal"? Because being a shiksa, or at least looking like one, is considered a good thing!)

                            Or there's "Shiska Goddess", a phrase which has become popular in a few different mediums. It's the title of a cute love song from an Off-Broadway show...

                            http://www.nomorelyrics.net/song/145862.html

                            ...it's embroidered on pillows sold on eBay...

                            http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1449&item=61286605 14&rd=1

                            ...it's sold on T-shirts and baseball hats and even underwear...

                            http://www.rotemdesignstudio.com/cgi-bin/store/cpshop.cgi?storeid=rotemgear.338918&page=1&trail=r otemgear.296420~Jewish%20%26%20Hebrew%20Gear~1&st= Shiksa%20Goodess

                            ...and Pulitzer Prize winner Wendy Wasserstein even used it as the title of one of her memoirs...

                            http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0375411658/102-6653467-0452947?v=glance

                            In other words, it's not a "bad" word! I'm sorry if anyone took offense at it, it truly wasn't intended to be some sort of cryptic put-down. Especially not of my own ancestress. :-)


                            - Brooke Schreier Ganz
                            Los Angeles, CA

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Asparagirl
                              including using a service like FamilyTreeDNA to take a DNA test--only find out that your mother's mother's mother's...mother may not have been Jewish at all is kinda funny! - Brooke Schreier Ganz
                              Los Angeles, CA

                              DID THEY TELL YOU EXACTLY WHEN THE CHANGE TOOK PLACE?

                              if they didnt then i wouldn't be surprized at all because [according to my beliefs] kelts are hebrew

                              Comment

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