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  • Y-DNA J1 with DYS388=13

    (Updated Dec 2007, adding cases from Great Britain (first case for that country) and northern Germany, and bringing the total number of cases of J1 with DYS388=13 to at least 51. Suggested explanations for the northern European cases added.)

    J1 with DYS388=13 is a distinctive type of Y-DNA J1 which apparently originated about 11,000 to 13,000 years ago in the foothills of the Taurus Mountains of southeast Turkey or the adjacent Zagros Mountains of Iran.

    For the rationale behind the identification of this area as the place of origin of J1 with DYS388=13, see the academic paper at evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Cinnioglu2004.pdf , and the conference presentation summary at http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/proj...stractKing.pdf .

    For a list of archaeological sites contemporary with the time of origin of J1 with DYS388=13, see the section "Upper Tigris basin" at www.canew.org/data.html .

    J1 with DYS388=13 is not associated with any particular ethnicity or religion. Its place of origin is beyond the area associated with Arabs and Jews, and almost no cases of this type have been found among those populations. In its home region, J1 with DYS388=13 has been found among Turks, Greeks, Kurds, Assyrians, one Iranian of possibly Anatolian descent, and several ethnic groups in the Caucasus. A handful of cases have also been found in northern Europe.

    Here is a summary of where J1 w/DYS388=13 has been found.

    Ysearch.org currently has at least 23 cases, some of which are shown as J or Unknown but are probably J1, with these places of origin:

    Sivas, Turkey
    Elazig, Turkey
    Trabzon, Turkey (an ethnic Greek)
    Pontus (NE coast of Turkey) (an ethnic Greek)
    Semdinli, Turkey (Assyrian)
    Kalymnos, a Greek island off the coast of Turkey
    Greece
    Astarabad, Iran
    Bavaria, Germany
    Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Germany
    Germany (two unrelated cases, no specific locations)
    Southern Ukraine
    Sicily (two cases)
    Syria (Arab Byzantine Christian)
    Poland (two unrelated cases)
    Slovakia, near the Polish border
    England or Scotland, unknown
    two American cases of unknown origin
    one case with no geographical information

    Also, academic papers by Cinnioglu et al., Bosch et al., Nebel et al., Sengupta et al., and Zerjal et al. report cases of J1 w/DYS388=13 in:

    Istanbul, Turkey
    Sea of Marmara area, Turkey
    Northeast Turkey
    Eastern Turkey
    Central Turkey
    Ploiesti, Romania
    Southern Pakistan (Sindhi)
    Bedouin from the Negev
    Palestinian Arab
    Kurdish Muslims and Jews from Iraq
    Azerbaijan, ethnic Azeri
    Russian Republic of Dagestan in the Caucasus, ethnic Lezgi or Lezginian

    The Czech DNA Project at FTDNA.org has one case from an area of Moravia which was settled by Wallachians from the Balkans.

    The database at YHRD.org has several possible cases from the northeast Caucasus, and two from southern Poland, but as they do not show a value for DYS388 they cannot be counted.

    Six other likely cases from Moldova are noted in an academic paper by Varzani, "Population history of the DniesterCarpathians: evidence from Alu markers" (see http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokser...=981561349.pdf ), but no value for DYS388 is shown.

    The presence of J1 w/DYS388=13 in Greece probably reflects movement among Greek colonies during the Greek empire, with one recent displacement.

    Plausible explanations for the rare presence of this type elsewhere in Europe are taking shape:

    1. The Czech and Slovak cases are related within the past few centuries, and are from areas settled by Wallachians or Vlachs who moved from Romania northwest along the Carpathians in the 1400s and 1500s. These cases have an exact 7/7 match with a case from present-day Moldova.

    2. Several sources note the participation of Moldavian cavalry in the Battle of Grunwald in north central Poland in 1410. The site of that battle is just 25 miles or 40 kilometers or so from where one of the Polish J1 cases is from. That Polish case has an exact 7/7 match with a case from present-day Moldova.

    3. The other Polish case and the two German cases with known places of origin are all from the same region. The Polish case and one of the German cases are related to each other within the past few centuries; the northernmost German case differs on several markers. The 15th century Polish historiographer Jan Dlugosz wrote that men from what is now Moldova participated in a Polish campaign against the German March of Brandenburg in 1342. So possibly these three cases are descended from soldiers who went north to participate in that campaign. These cases do not have exact matches on the northern or western shore of the Black Sea.

    4. The British case does not have a known place of origin. However, the surname is associated with an area of northern England which straddles Hadrian's Wall. Roman remains from that area document the presence of a Roman unit called Cohors Primae Dacorum or First Cohort of Dacians on Hadrian's Wall in the early 3rd century. Dacia was in what is now Romania. The British case has an approximate match with a case from modern Romania. The genetic distance of 2 is consistent with a separation of 1,700 years:

    14 13 23 10 11 12 14 16 11 England
    14 13 23 10 11 12 13 15 11 Ploiesti, Romania

    So far as I know, no academic papers on Roman and Roman-related DNA in Britain have been published.

    Jim
    J1 w/DYS388=13

  • #2
    (Updated Jan 2008, adding a case from Spain and bringing the total number of cases of J1 with DYS388=13 to at least 52.)

    J1 with DYS388=13 is a distinctive type of Y-DNA J1 which apparently originated about 11,000 to 13,000 years ago in the foothills of the Taurus Mountains of southeast Turkey or the adjacent Zagros Mountains of Iran.

    For the rationale behind the identification of this area as the place of origin of J1 with DYS388=13, see the academic paper at evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Cinnioglu2004.pdf , and the conference presentation summary at http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/proj...stractKing.pdf . The conference presentation summary suggests the age of 11,000 to 13,000 years. However, the most distant relationship among the known cases indicates that if all these cases really are descended from a single man, then he lived around 7,770 years ago, or around 6,000 BC.

    For a list of archaeological sites contemporary with the time that the earliest men having of J1 with DYS388=13 lived, see the section "Southeastern Turkey sites database" at www.canew.org/data.html . In general, this area is the upper Euphrates River and its tributaries in northern Syria and southern Turkey, and the uppermost stretch of the Tigris River in Turkey.

    J1 with DYS388=13 is not associated with any particular ethnicity or religion. Its place of origin is beyond the area associated with Arabs and Jews, and almost no cases of this type have been found among those populations. In its home region, J1 with DYS388=13 has been found among Turks, Greeks, Kurds, Assyrians, one Iranian of possibly Anatolian descent, and several ethnic groups in the Caucasus. A handful of cases have also been found in northern Europe.

    Here is a summary of where J1 w/DYS388=13 has been found.

    Ysearch.org currently has at least 24 cases, some of which are shown as J or Unknown but are probably J1, with these places of origin:

    Sivas, Turkey
    Elazig, Turkey
    Trabzon, Turkey (an ethnic Greek)
    Pontus (NE coast of Turkey) (an ethnic Greek)
    Semdinli, Turkey (Assyrian)
    Kalymnos, a Greek island off the coast of Turkey
    Greece
    Astarabad, Iran
    Bavaria, Germany
    Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Germany
    Germany (two unrelated cases, no specific locations)
    Southern Ukraine
    Sicily (two cases)
    Syria (Arab Byzantine Christian)
    Poland (two unrelated cases)
    Slovakia, near the Polish border
    England or Scotland, unknown
    Spain, plus two other cases with Spanish surnames
    one case with no geographical information

    Also, academic papers by Cinnioglu et al., Bosch et al., Nebel et al., Sengupta et al., and Zerjal et al. report cases of J1 w/DYS388=13 in:

    Istanbul, Turkey
    Sea of Marmara area, Turkey
    Northeast Turkey
    Eastern Turkey
    Central Turkey
    Ploiesti, Romania
    Southern Pakistan (Sindhi)
    Bedouin from the Negev
    Palestinian Arab
    Kurdish Muslims and Jews from Iraq
    Azerbaijan, ethnic Azeri
    Russian Republic of Dagestan in the Caucasus, ethnic Lezgi or Lezginian

    The Czech DNA Project at FTDNA.org has one case from an area of Moravia which was settled by Wallachians from the Balkans.

    The database at YHRD.org has several possible cases from the northeast Caucasus, and two from southern Poland, but as they do not show a value for DYS388 they cannot be counted.

    Six other likely cases from Moldova are noted in an academic paper by Varzani, "Population history of the DniesterCarpathians: evidence from Alu markers" (see http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokser...=981561349.pdf ), but no value for DYS388 is shown.

    The presence of J1 w/DYS388=13 in Greece probably reflects movement among Greek colonies during the Greek empire, with one recent displacement.

    None of the European cases north of Greece is a close relative to any of the five Ysearch cases which are from the area of origin of J1 with DYS388=13. The most recent Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor between a European case north of Greece and a Ysearch case from the area of origin is 1,860 years, and that is between the case from southern Ukraine and the two ethnic Greek cases from Trabzon and the Pontus. Thus, the southern Ukraine case is probably also a result of movement among Greek colonies.

    Plausible explanations for the rare presence of this type elsewhere in Europe are taking shape:

    1. The two Czech and Slovak cases are related within the past few centuries, and are from areas settled by Wallachians or Vlachs who moved from Romania northwest along the Carpathians in the 1400s and 1500s. These cases have an exact 7/7 match with a case from present-day Moldova.

    2. Several sources note the participation of Moldavian cavalry in the Battle of Grunwald in north central Poland in 1410. The site of that battle is just 25 miles or 40 kilometers or so from where one of the Polish J1 cases is from. That Polish case has an exact 7/7 match with a case from present-day Moldova.

    3. The other Polish case and the two German cases with known places of origin are all from the same region. The Polish case and one of the German cases are related to each other within the past few centuries; the northernmost German case differs on several markers. The 15th century Polish historiographer Jan Dlugosz wrote that men from what is now Moldova participated in a Polish campaign against the German March of Brandenburg in 1342. So maybe these three cases are descended from soldiers who went north to participate in that campaign. These cases do not have exact matches on the northern or western shore of the Black Sea.

    4. The British case does not have a known place of origin. However, the surname is associated with an area of northern England which straddles Hadrian's Wall. Roman remains from that area document the presence of a Roman unit called Cohors Primae Dacorum or First Cohort of Dacians on Hadrian's Wall in the early 3rd century. Dacia was in what is now Romania. The British case has an approximate match with a case from modern Romania. The genetic distance of 2 is consistent with a separation of 1,700 years:

    14 13 23 10 11 12 14 16 11 England
    14 13 23 10 11 12 13 15 11 Ploiesti, Romania

    So far as I know, no academic papers on Roman and Roman-related DNA in Britain have been published.

    Jim
    J1 w/DYS388=13

    Comment


    • #3
      J/388/13 family as Flood survivors?

      A beautiful synthesis of genomology and ancient history, JH! When you publish your book I want to know!
      Any time now someone will hijack this material as "Spanish Family direct descendant of Noah's shipbuilders."
      Noah was, on Ussherian Biblical grounds, about 2000 years pre-Jewish. Earlier estimates are spanned by the period of the Canew project.

      Comment


      • #4
        (Updated Feb 15, 2008, adding an Armenian case from southern Turkey, and an apparently Scottish case.)

        J1 with DYS388=13 is a distinctive type of Y-DNA J1 which apparently originated about 11,000 to 13,000 years ago in the foothills of the Taurus Mountains of southeast Turkey or the adjacent Zagros Mountains of Iran.

        For the rationale behind the identification of this area as the place of origin of J1 with DYS388=13, see the academic paper at evolutsioon.ut.ee/publications/Cinnioglu2004.pdf , and the conference presentation summary at http://www.linguistics.ucsb.edu/proj...stractKing.pdf . The conference presentation summary suggests the age of 11,000 to 13,000 years. The greatest Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) between any two cases in my amateur analysis is, sure enough, 11,640 years.

        For a list of archaeological sites contemporary with the time that the earliest men having of J1 with DYS388=13 lived, see the section "Southeastern Turkey sites database" at www.canew.org/data.html . In general, this area is the upper Euphrates River and its tributaries in northern Syria and southern Turkey, and the uppermost stretch of the Tigris River in Turkey.

        J1 with DYS388=13 is not associated with any particular ethnicity or religion. Its place of origin is beyond the area associated with Arabs and Jews, and almost no cases of this type have been found among those populations. In its home region, J1 with DYS388=13 has been found among Turks, Greeks, Kurds, Assyrians, one Iranian of possibly Anatolian descent, one Armenian from southern Turkey, and several ethnic groups in the Caucasus. A handful of cases have also been found in northern Europe.

        Here is a summary of where J1 w/DYS388=13 has been found.

        Ysearch.org currently has at least 24 cases, some of which are shown as J or Unknown but are probably J1, with these places of origin:

        Sivas, Turkey
        Elazig, Turkey
        Edessa (Urfa/Sanliurfa), Turkey (Armenian)
        Trabzon, Turkey (Greek)
        Pontus (NE coast of Turkey) (Greek)
        Semdinli, Turkey (Assyrian)
        Kalymnos, a Greek island off the coast of Turkey
        Greece
        Astarabad, Iran (ancestrally Anatolian?)
        Bavaria, Germany
        Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Germany
        Germany (two unrelated cases, no specific locations)
        Southern Ukraine
        Sicily (two cases)
        Syria (Arab Byzantine Christian)
        Poland (two unrelated cases)
        Slovakia, near the Polish border
        England or Scotland, unknown (two related cases)
        Spain, two cases plus two other cases with Spanish surnames
        one case with no geographical information

        Also, academic papers by Cinnioglu et al., Bosch et al., Nebel et al., Sengupta et al., and Zerjal et al. report cases of J1 w/DYS388=13 in:

        Istanbul, Turkey
        Sea of Marmara area, Turkey
        Northeast Turkey
        Eastern Turkey
        Central Turkey
        Ploiesti, Romania
        Southern Pakistan (Sindhi)
        Bedouin from the Negev
        Palestinian Arab
        Kurdish Muslims and Jews from Iraq
        Azerbaijan, ethnic Azeri
        Russian Republic of Dagestan in the Caucasus, ethnic Lezgi or Lezginian

        The Czech DNA Project at FTDNA.org has one case from an area of Moravia which was settled by Wallachians from the Balkans.

        The database at YHRD.org has several possible cases from the northeast Caucasus, and two from southern Poland, but as they do not show a value for DYS388 they cannot be counted.

        Six other likely cases from Moldova are noted in an academic paper by Varzani, "Population history of the DniesterCarpathians: evidence from Alu markers" (see http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokser...=981561349.pdf ), but no value for DYS388 is shown.

        The presence of J1 w/DYS388=13 in Greece probably reflects movement among Greek colonies during the Greek empire, with one recent displacement.

        None of the European cases north of Greece is a close relative to any of the five Ysearch cases which are from the area of origin of J1 with DYS388=13. The most recent Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA) between a European case north of Greece and a Ysearch case from the area of origin is 1,500 years (see paragraph 4 below). The next most recent is 1,860 years, and that is between the case from southern Ukraine and the two ethnic Greek cases from Trabzon and the Pontus. Thus, the southern Ukraine case is probably also a result of movement among Greek colonies.

        Plausible explanations for the rare presence of this type elsewhere in Europe are taking shape:

        1. The two Czech and Slovak cases are related within the past few centuries, and are from areas settled by Wallachians or Vlachs who moved from Romania northwest along the Carpathians in the 1400s and 1500s. These cases have an exact 7/7 match with a case from present-day Moldova.

        2. Several sources note the participation of Moldavian cavalry in the Battle of Grunwald in north central Poland in 1410. The site of that battle is just 25 miles or 40 kilometers or so from where one of the Polish J1 cases is from. That Polish case has an exact 7/7 match with a case from present-day Moldova.

        3. The other Polish case and the two German cases with known places of origin are all from the same region. The Polish case and one of the German cases are related to each other within the past few centuries; the northernmost German case differs on several markers. The 15th century Polish historiographer Jan Dlugosz wrote that men from what is now Moldova participated in a Polish campaign against the German March of Brandenburg in 1342. So maybe these three cases are descended from soldiers who went north to participate in that campaign. These cases do not have exact matches on the northern or western shore of the Black Sea.

        4. The British case is now listed on Ysearch with Ireland as the place of origin of the earliest known ancestor. That case does not have a known place of ultimate origin. However, the surname is associated with an area of northern England which straddles Hadrian's Wall. Roman remains from that area document the presence of a Roman unit called Cohors Primae Dacorum or First Cohort of Dacians on Hadrian's Wall in the early 3rd century. Dacia was in what is now Romania. The British case has an approximate match with a case from modern Romania. The genetic distance of 2 is consistent with a separation of 1,700 years:

        14 13 23 10 11 12 14 16 11 England
        14 13 23 10 11 12 13 15 11 Ploiesti, Romania

        However, the British case is separated by only 1,500 years from the Armenian case from southern Turkey.

        The researcher of the British case found a Scots-Irish distant relative on SMGF.org. I put that case into Ysearch.org as User ID SSPW7. That case is separated from the Armenian case by 2,040 years. Thus we have a bracket of 1,500 to 2,040 years of separation between the British cases and the Armenian case.

        If the Roman auxiliary theory is any good as an explanation for the two British cases, then I suppose this comparison suggests an ancestor directly from southern Turkey or northern Syria rather than among the Dacians of Romania.

        A "Company of Archers from Syria" was stationed in northern Britain.
        www.roman-britain.org/places/bravoniacum.htm
        www.romanarmy.net/hamians.htm

        So far as I know, no academic papers on Roman and Roman-related DNA in Britain have been published.

        5. With regard to the four Spanish cases, using four of the cases which are still in the home region in or near eastern Anatolia as reference points yields the following Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor between the Spanish cases and one or more of the cases at origin:

        Gallegos: 3600, 2670, 4650, and 2670 years
        Martinez: 3600 years
        Grijalva: 1110 years
        Sandoval: 1110 years

        Those figures do not necessarily represent how long it has been since those Spanish lines left eastern Anatolia. However, I think they suggest that the Gallegos and Martinez lines may have moved with the Phoenicians, while the Grijalva and Sandoval lines moved in historic times.

        This begs the question of how closely related to each other the Spanish cases are. Here are some of those TMRCA calculations:

        Grijalva and Sandoval: 1860 years
        Grijalva and Martinez: 2670 years
        Gallegos and Martinez: 3600 years
        Gallegos and Sandoval: 5880 years

        Thus, they would appear to have been four separate lines when they left the eastern Mediterranean.

        A fifth case apparently related to Spain is a case from Turkey labeled "Sephardic." That case is beyond my expertise.

        Jim
        J1 w/DYS388=13

        Comment


        • #5
          Jim,

          I see that you're focusing on 388 = 13, but did you see that ySearch JW98X is confirmed J1 with 388 = 14 from China? Bonnie's classifying 13 & 14 together in the J project...

          Comment


          • #6
            Vinnie,

            No, I'm not doing anything with DYS388=14.

            My impression is that Bonnie is lumping 13 and 14 together to see what it might show. Not sure why she's doing that.

            I've never seen anything about DYS388=14 in any academic papers. But DYS388 "deviates from the stepwise mutation" pattern, so my understanding is that DYS388 13 and 14 have nothing in common. There's so little DYS388=14 that I don't even know where it came from.

            Regards,
            Jim

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by vinnie
              Jim,

              I see that you're focusing on 388 = 13, but did you see that ySearch JW98X is confirmed J1 with 388 = 14 from China?
              Since the nearest neighbor of the Chinese J1 is, by far, ZRTYW of Syria, I suspect that the Chinese descends from Nestorians:

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism_in_China

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by lgmayka
                Since the nearest neighbor of the Chinese J1 is, by far, ZRTYW of Syria, I suspect that the Chinese descends from Nestorians:

                http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nestorianism_in_China
                Larry,

                Well, ZRTYW has DYS388=15. Whether DYS388 14 mutates to 15 is something I don't know.

                I'm working by academic guidance that DYS388 is very stable, almost unchanging, and that DYS388=13 cases are all of a set.

                The Sou or Su clan of Quanzhou claims Arab ancestry. http://www.newstatesman.com/200612180062

                Don't know if DYS388=14 occurs among Arabs or not.

                Regards,
                Jim

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck
                  Don't know if DYS388=14 occurs among Arabs or not.
                  In arabian peninsula project, only one case with DYS388 = 14 is found. An other one has the famous 13 but 17 and above is much more common

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck
                    ...But DYS388 "deviates from the stepwise mutation" pattern...
                    Jim, could you please explain this?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by vinnie
                      Jim, could you please explain this?
                      Vinnie,

                      No, I'm afraid I can't. That phrase is from page 4 of this paper:

                      hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/HG_2004_v114_p127-148.pdf

                      with reference to another paper.

                      In practical terms, I assume it means that DYS388=12, DYS388=13, and DYS388=14 are apples, oranges, and pears.

                      Regards,
                      Jim

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by vinnie
                        Jim, could you please explain this?
                        Saying that DYS388 deviates from the normal stepwise mutational process (which are Nebel's words, not Jim's) is a tortured and probably inaccurate statement.

                        The most common value of DYS388 in haplogroup J1 is 16. This possibly represents the value held by the MRCA of all members of haplogroup J1. About half of all J1 has this value.

                        However, the other have of J1 have some other value for DYS388. About 36% have either DYS388=15 or DYS388=17 - a one step mutation away from the founder's value. About 7% have either DYS388=14 or DYS388=18 - a two step mutation away from the founder's value.

                        The interesting thing comes next. About 6% of J1 has DYS388=13 but only 1% has DYS388=19. This asymmetry indicates the existence of a distinct subclade of J1, which enjoyed better-than-average population growth since its founding and whose founder had DYS388=13.

                        Nebel, Cinnioglu, and others have noted this group (which is important). However, all the normal mutational and reproductive forces exist in haplogroup J1 that exist in other haplogroups. Some lineages that descend from the purported DYS388=13 founder have mutated and now exhibit DYS388=12 or DYS388=14. In fact, most people with those alleles probably belong to the DYS388=13 "cluster" but you would need to use novel SNPs or other Y-STRs to decide which ones.

                        In short, there is not necessarily any real "deviation", but rather a bi-modal population.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Vineviz,

                          Finally, a clear explanation. Thanks!

                          I'd better investigate the DYS388=12s and 14s.

                          Regards,
                          Jim

                          Comment

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