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Confusion about Ashkenazi-Levite & Y-DNA Recombination

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  • Confusion about Ashkenazi-Levite & Y-DNA Recombination

    Greetings all,
    My "deep clade" haplogroup is R1a1, Ashkenazi-Levite. I have been told by several that the probability based on my 67 markers is that I have a Jewish heritage probably Ashkenazi-Levite.

    Another informant has graciously made the following analysis:

    "I have looked at your results and they are not close to any of the Levites that we have in our system…primarily I believe, because of a recombination event at DYS 459 and CDYa/b which as you can see are 9/9 and 34/34 while the ‘modal’ or most common values for those are 9/10 and 35/38 for the majority of Ashkenazi-Levites............
    So you were off from the Levite modal haplotype to begin with at CDY (they are 35/38) where you must have had at least one 34 therefore the RecLoh event happened. But it makes calculating totally reliant on the other markers, and you are different from the LMH there as well. When we estimated the difference it shows that you don’t have a common ancestor with the folks who have known that they are Jews and have the Levite oral tradition in around 1100 years,with a high degree of confidence. SO if you are Jewish on this line (I have no idea) it was at the time that the King of Khazaria converted, and if you don’t have the oral tradition then I doubt that you are of that Khazarian lineage."

    QUESTION. Based on this analysis may I continue with the probability of a Jewish Ashkenazi-Levite heritage? Thanks you for your reply.

  • #2
    Fantome, I would continue in your search. At least one aspect of your informant's conclusion is not yet justified. Your informant tied the development of R1a Levites to the Khazar conversion. But in Behar's Levite study the conclusion was that there was not enough evidence to tie the R1a Levite development to a specific source region or event.

    Is your question just about Levites or about an Ashkenazi background in general? There were probably many different events involving conversion to Judaism in the eastern Europe and Black Sea areas going back to the Diaspora, i.e. areas where R1a is common. Are most of your matches Levite or Ashkenazi.


    • #3
      Originally posted by fantome
      ... a recombination event at DYS 459 and CDYa/b which as you can see are 9/9 and 34/34 ...
      Neither Y nor Mt recombine.
      Last edited by tomcat; 28 November 2007, 08:21 PM.


      • #4
        Originally posted by tomcat
        Neither Y nor Mt recombine.
        The person that Fantome is quoting undoubtedly meant to say "recLOH" to describe the mutations he's talking about. In fact, he does use "recLOH" later in his reply to Fantome.

        recLOH is the abbreviation for "recombinant loss of heterozygosity." It refers to the situation in multi-copy markers, usually those with a letter at the end (DYS459a-b, DYS464a-d, etc.). These markers are related to each other by being at the same locus. Sometimes, for some reason, one of the multi-copy markers will write over one of its mates, making it the same STR count. So, DYS459a-b=9-10 becomes DYS459a-b=9-9.

        I don't know about the other modal Ashkenazi-Levite marker modal values that this person refers to, but Fantome's CDYa-b=34-34 is really not so far off the 35-38 the person mentions as the Ashkenazi-Levite modal for that marker. If there was a recLOH involving Fantome's CDYa-b, which sounds likely, this is what may have happened:

        Fantome's paternal line was originally the Askenazi-Levite modal of CDYa-b=35-38. It mutated somewhere along the line to 34-38. Then a recLOH occurred to make it 34-34. That's two mutations off from the Ashkenazi-Levite modal for CDYa-b, known as a very fast mutator.


        • #5
          Reply to Josh w.

          Most appear to be Ashkenazi-Levite. Thanks.


          • #6
            Reply to MMaddi

            Yes recLOH would be the correct terminology. I also had double numbers for:

            DYS 459 a & b =9
            DYS 464 a & b =12
            DYS 464 c & d =15
            DYS CDY a & b=34
            DYS 395 51 a & b =17
            DYS 413 a & b = 22

            Is there any significance to these double numbers in light of this discussion?


            • #7
              Fantome, your informant's response may be correct but it leaves open some simple statistical questions. Are the Levite 67 marker data published anywhere? Where does the sample come from and is it related to Behar's sample---this relates to the issue of the representativeness of the sample, not a minor problem in dealing with small self selected samples. Drawing conclusions based on modes may be risky unless there is little variation around the mode. Did your informant state that your pattern did not come close to any individuals in the sample---that would be a stronger statement than simply saying that you were not close to the mode. Given the fact that you have a number of Levite matches, I would be hesitant on closing the book on this issue.


              • #8
                I believe you have said before that your Ysearch entry is 7Q9V9.

                The Ashkenazi R1a1 Modal that I constructed--not for all Ashkenazi R1a1, but for a significant cluster--is FCUFG. Here is the cluster:


                Since your recLOH is a single mutation event, and your 2-step change from the modal at DYS570 may also be a single mutation (a 2-step is more likely than two 1-steps), you are separated from the modal by as few as 7 mutations. XM3U5 is separated from the modal by 6 mutations, and yet clearly belongs to the cluster.

                I can only imagine that your informant judges 7 mutations to be too many to have occurred in the space of only 1100 years. As a rough rule of thumb, a mutation occurs on 67 markers every 5 or 6 generations. Thus, one would expect 7 mutations in about 35-42 generations, or about 1050-1260 years. I don't think your informant's view is sustainable, especially since the numbers I have just given are averages--larger mutation counts do sometimes occur.

                By the way, the most obvious manifestation of a Levite oral tradition is an ancestral surname based on the name Levi.