Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Hunnish Y-DNA?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Jim Honeychuck
    replied
    European Human Genetics Conference 2007
    June 16 – 19, 2007
    Nice, France
    Abstracts

    European Journal of Human Genetics


    P1193. Analyses of mitochondrial and Y-chromosomal
    lineages in modern Hungarian, Szekler and ancient Hungarian
    populations

    B. Csányi1, G. Tömöry2, E. Bogácsi-Szabó1, Á. Czibula1, K. Priskin1, M.
    Mórocz1, A. Szécsényi1, A. Csősz2, B. Mende2, P. Langó2, K. Csete3, A. Zsolnai4, I. Raskó1; 1Institute of Genetics,Biological Research Center, Hungarian Academy of Sciences, Szeged, Hungary, 2Archaeological Institute, Hungarian Academy of Sciences, Budapest, Hungary, 3Department of Forensic Medicine, University of Szeged, Szeged, Hungary, 4Research Institute for Animal Breeding and Nutrition, Herceghalom, Hungary.

    Hungarian population belongs linguistically to the Finno-Ugric branch
    of the Uralic language family.

    High-resolution mtDNA analysis of 27 ancient samples (10th-11th centuries),
    101 modern Hungarian, and 76 modern Hungarian-speaking
    Szekler samples was performed. Only two of 27 ancient Hungarian
    samples are unambiguously Asian: the rest belong to one of the western
    Eurasian haplogroups. Statistical analyses, including 57 European
    and Asian populations, revealed that some Asian affinities and the
    genetic effect of populations who came into contact with ancient Hungarians
    during their migrations are seen. Though strong differences
    appear when the ancient Hungarian samples are analyzed according
    to apparent social status, as judged by grave goods. mtDNA results
    demonstrate that significant genetic differences exist between the ancient
    and recent Hungarian-speaking populations.

    The Y-chromosomal base substitution ”Tat”, proved to be a valuable
    marker in the Finno-Ugric context. The Tat C allele is widespread in
    many Uralic-speaking populations, while it is virtually absent in recent
    Hungarians.

    To further elucidate this finding we studied this polymorphism on 100
    modern Hungarian, 97 Szekler and 4 ancient Hungarian samples. Our
    data revealed that only one Szekler men carries the C allele among
    the modern individuals, whereas out of the four skeletal remains two
    possess the mutation.

    Furthermore we examined 22 Y-chromosomal binary markers to analyze
    the paternal genetic diversity of the two recent populations.
    Our results show that Hungarians and Szeklers share basically the
    same genetic components found in other European populations, genetically
    closely related and close to other populations from Central
    Europe and the Balkan.

    Leave a comment:


  • cacio
    replied
    Beth:

    interesting, the 3 Q's would indeed seem to represent a (small?) Asian contribution, though of course it could be the Magyars, not the Huns. Most of the rest seem to fit in the general European background.

    cacio

    Leave a comment:


  • Beth Long
    replied
    Magyar Y-DNA

    Originally posted by J Man
    I wonder if the Huns left any traces at all of Y-DNA in Europe? I am thinking that they most likely did not.

    Anyone have any ideas about which haplogroups the Huns may have had? I am speculating most likely O, R1a1, C and possibly N.
    Not that I am equating Hun and Magyar DNA, but our Hungarian Bukovina project (which is mainly composed of Szekely) now has 82 members, and shows the following Y-DNA numbers and percentages:

    R1a= 20= 24%
    I1b=17=21%
    R1b1=11=13%
    E3b=10=12%
    J2=6==7%
    I1A=5=6%
    G2=4=5%
    I1c/I1b2a=3=4%
    Q=3=4%
    One each N and L

    Project Website:

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ovinaSurnames/

    By the way, my friend Bernadett Csanyi's article on Magyar/Szekely DNA (including y-DNA findings from ancient Hungarian burial sites) has been accepted for publication by The Annals of Human Genetics, and should be in print within the next three months. She is working with a research group in Hungary at the University of Szeged.

    Beth Long

    Leave a comment:


  • Beth Long
    replied
    Magyar Y-DNA

    Originally posted by J Man
    I wonder if the Huns left any traces at all of Y-DNA in Europe? I am thinking that they most likely did not.

    Anyone have any ideas about which haplogroups the Huns may have had? I am speculating most likely O, R1a1, C and possibly N.
    Not that I am equating Hun and Magyar DNA, but our Hungarian Bukovina project (which is mainly composed of Szekely) now has 82 members, and shows the following Y-DNA numbers and percentages:

    R1a= 20= 24%
    I1b=17=21%
    R1b1=11=13%
    E3b=10=12%
    J2=6==7%
    I1A=5=6%
    G2=4=5%
    I1c/I1b2a=3=4%
    Q=3=4%
    One each N and L

    Project Website:

    http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ovinaSurnames/

    By the way, my friend Bernadett Csanyi's article on Magyar/Szekely DNA (including y-DNA findings from ancient Hungarian burial sites) has been accepted for publication by The Annals of Human Genetics, and should be in print within the next three months. She is working with a research group in Hungary at the University of Szeged.

    Beth Long
    Last edited by Beth Long; 6 December 2007, 03:27 PM. Reason: misspelling

    Leave a comment:


  • Hando
    replied
    Originally posted by cacio
    J Man:

    In a way though, what is surprising is how little of all of these there are in Europe. Perhaps the impact of the Huns was really small, unless they really had a lot of Germanic tribes in them.

    cacio
    Eventhough there may be little Hunnish DNA in Europe, I think this is due to the fact that perhaps many of the babies of women who were raped were killed off at birth or even aborted using homeopathic solutions.This is only conjecture, but the shame of rape must have been a motivating factor.

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Csango/Huns/Ashkenazi

    Just an aside, but my DNA Tribes results showed Hungarian Ashkenazi as my second highest score, which was expected. The first was Csango, which is a group of Hungarian speakers from eastern Rumania. The funny thing is, the Csango claim descent from one of the sons of Attila, and I do have a bit of an "oriental" cast to my face. So I have to wonder if some Hunnish genes survived among the Ashkenazi in Eastern Europe. Attila's capital was in Hungary, by the way.

    My Y DNA is E3b1c1.

    Leave a comment:


  • Johnserrat
    replied
    Originally posted by DKF
    I have explored the matter in the following study:
    http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsi...NAEvidence.pdf.

    We have some ancient DNA samples to work with (see other posts on this Forum - "R1a1 Hindu Brahmins, ........" for this info). It would make sense to look at the haplogroups most prevalent in the regions from which the Huns (Xiong Nu) appear to have originated. It is my opinion that R1a1 predominated as it does in many Altai tribes today, along with Q and K2. I believe that C3 came later with the "Golden Horde" of Genghis Khan. An inspection of the areas touched by the Hun and Khan migrations in relation to what has been found in terms of haplogroup structure in Europe today (a very small amount of C3 in Germany; Q all the way into Scandinavia) supports this contention. Of course he Huns mixed heavily with the Alans and the Osterogoths and other Germanic tribes so it gets very complicated and will ultimately prove difficult, but not impossibe, to tease out the various components. As usual, I see ancient DNA from studies in Europe coming to our rescue in wresting with these issues - give it two years and we will have a clearer picture.

    DKF
    I also found your study very interesting. A few comments: First, I would think that the presence of haplogroup G in western europe could be the result of the Alans presence among the Hun who invaded western europe.

    Second, the term "Ing", which is believed the refer to Ingwaz or Frey, was around well before the hunnish invasions. The north sea germanic people were called Ingvaeones by Pliny in 80 CE and by Tacitus in 98 CE. According to Tacitus, the Ingvaeones were one of the three tribes descended from the three sons of Mannus, son of Tuisto, progenitor of all the Germanic peoples.

    I am also hopeful that ancient DNA can shed some light on many of the mysteries surrounding the origins of the germanic peoples.

    John

    Leave a comment:


  • cacio
    replied
    Azerbaijan is in the Caucasus, so, despite the fact that they speak a turkic language, they are probably closer to the caucasus and the middle east (as is Turkey, after all). So it is possible that any smudge of K2 came from the south (Armenia, Iran, Turkey) rather than from Central Asia, where it is not found.

    I agree with you though that, from those places, K2 may have been picked up indirectly in various barbaric invasions.

    which paper finds K2 in Azerbaijan? Regueiro et al find 3.5% K2 in Iran. Weale on Armenia doesn't distinguish K2, though I suspect some may exist. Cinnioglu finds around 2.5% K2 n Anatolia. So these two countries seem potential sources of Azeri K2.

    cacio

    Leave a comment:


  • DKF
    replied
    Originally posted by cacio
    David:

    I see. So it wasn't found in Central Asia, just indirectly in N Europe. A different hypothesis would be that those K2 are really mediterranean. there's plenty of K2 in the mediterranean.

    cacio
    Perhaps I failed to make myself clear. K2 is indeed found in Central Asia. The closest matches from my Shetlander are in Ajerbaijan which is in Central Asia (albeit the western part). His haplotype is not even remotely similar to those from the Mediterranean. Hyerdahl always considered Azerbaijan the "home" of the Asser, the Asian people associated with Odin and the Ynglinga Dynasty in Scandinavia as described in Snorri's Heimskringla. Huns and Alans settled there prior to the time of Attila. The fabled city of Asgaard, left in the hands of Odin's two brothers at the time of his departoure for Gamla Uppsala, Sweden is near Azerbaijan.

    DKF.

    Leave a comment:


  • cacio
    replied
    David:

    I see. So it wasn't found in Central Asia, just indirectly in N Europe. A different hypothesis would be that those K2 are really mediterranean. there's plenty of K2 in the mediterranean.

    cacio

    Leave a comment:


  • DKF
    replied
    Originally posted by cacio
    David:

    very interesting article. Indeed R1a seems a good candidate. One thing that surprised me though was your mention of K2. where was that found? I didn't think there was any K2 around there.

    cacio
    Small amounts in Norway, Shetland and the Faroe Islands. My Shetland participant's closest matches are from Azerbaijan.

    DKF.

    Leave a comment:


  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    Attila my uncle?

    I down loaded the above article, but haven't read it yet. If "Attila The Hun" was R1a1, then he and I have a common paternal ancestor from way back when. I always wanted to be related to someone famous, but I was hoping for that someone to have been more respectable.

    R1a1 (Norwegian variety)

    Leave a comment:


  • cacio
    replied
    David:

    very interesting article. Indeed R1a seems a good candidate. One thing that surprised me though was your mention of K2. where was that found? I didn't think there was any K2 around there.

    cacio

    Leave a comment:


  • J Man
    replied
    Originally posted by DKF
    I have explored the matter in the following study:
    http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsi...NAEvidence.pdf.

    We have some ancient DNA samples to work with (see other posts on this Forum - "R1a1 Hindu Brahmins, ........" for this info). It would make sense to look at the haplogroups most prevalent in the regions from which the Huns (Xiong Nu) appear to have originated. It is my opinion that R1a1 predominated as it does in many Altai tribes today, along with Q and K2. I believe that C3 came later with the "Golden Horde" of Genghis Khan. An inspection of the areas touched by the Hun and Khan migrations in relation to what has been found in terms of haplogroup structure in Europe today (a very small amount of C3 in Germany; Q all the way into Scandinavia) supports this contention. Of course he Huns mixed heavily with the Alans and the Osterogoths and other Germanic tribes so it gets very complicated and will ultimately prove difficult, but not impossibe, to tease out the various components. As usual, I see ancient DNA from studies in Europe coming to our rescue in wresting with these issues - give it two years and we will have a clearer picture.

    DKF

    I agree that as the years progress we should definately have more information and a clearer view of many things in the genetic world.

    Leave a comment:


  • DKF
    replied
    Originally posted by J Man
    I wonder if the Huns left any traces at all of Y-DNA in Europe? I am thinking that they most likely did not.

    Anyone have any ideas about which haplogroups the Huns may have had? I am speculating most likely O, R1a1, C and possibly N.
    I have explored the matter in the following study:
    http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsi...NAEvidence.pdf.

    We have some ancient DNA samples to work with (see other posts on this Forum - "R1a1 Hindu Brahmins, ........" for this info). It would make sense to look at the haplogroups most prevalent in the regions from which the Huns (Xiong Nu) appear to have originated. It is my opinion that R1a1 predominated as it does in many Altai tribes today, along with Q and K2. I believe that C3 came later with the "Golden Horde" of Genghis Khan. An inspection of the areas touched by the Hun and Khan migrations in relation to what has been found in terms of haplogroup structure in Europe today (a very small amount of C3 in Germany; Q all the way into Scandinavia) supports this contention. Of course he Huns mixed heavily with the Alans and the Osterogoths and other Germanic tribes so it gets very complicated and will ultimately prove difficult, but not impossibe, to tease out the various components. As usual, I see ancient DNA from studies in Europe coming to our rescue in wresting with these issues - give it two years and we will have a clearer picture.

    DKF

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X