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  • Hunnish Y-DNA?

    I wonder if the Huns left any traces at all of Y-DNA in Europe? I am thinking that they most likely did not.

    Anyone have any ideas about which haplogroups the Huns may have had? I am speculating most likely O, R1a1, C and possibly N.

  • #2
    J Man:

    the Huns must have been a mix of central and east asian tribes, presumably with a strong turkic component, so I'd say your guess is good, with N perhaps more prominent than you hypothesize, O less important (O is chinese, but there is less in Mongolia and Siberia), and some Q tossed in as well.

    In a way though, what is surprising is how little of all of these there are in Europe. Perhaps the impact of the Huns was really small, unless they really had a lot of Germanic tribes in them.

    There are tiny little bits of Asian mtdna in Eastern Europe <1% but detectable. However, it seems hard to assign these to hunnish migrations.

    cacio

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    • #3
      Originally posted by cacio
      J Man:

      the Huns must have been a mix of central and east asian tribes, presumably with a strong turkic component, so I'd say your guess is good, with N perhaps more prominent than you hypothesize, O less important (O is chinese, but there is less in Mongolia and Siberia), and some Q tossed in as well.

      In a way though, what is surprising is how little of all of these there are in Europe. Perhaps the impact of the Huns was really small, unless they really had a lot of Germanic tribes in them.

      There are tiny little bits of Asian mtdna in Eastern Europe <1% but detectable. However, it seems hard to assign these to hunnish migrations.

      cacio

      Yes I do agree with what you say here. It is true that they absorbed other tribes so like you say by the time they really reached Europe much of their army could have been made up of Germanic peoples.

      I remember Charles Kerchner saying that the lowlevels of East Asian autosomal DNA seem among Germanic people today may come from the Huns. But this really is just a guess I think.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by J Man
        I wonder if the Huns left any traces at all of Y-DNA in Europe? I am thinking that they most likely did not.

        Anyone have any ideas about which haplogroups the Huns may have had? I am speculating most likely O, R1a1, C and possibly N.
        I have explored the matter in the following study:
        http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsi...NAEvidence.pdf.

        We have some ancient DNA samples to work with (see other posts on this Forum - "R1a1 Hindu Brahmins, ........" for this info). It would make sense to look at the haplogroups most prevalent in the regions from which the Huns (Xiong Nu) appear to have originated. It is my opinion that R1a1 predominated as it does in many Altai tribes today, along with Q and K2. I believe that C3 came later with the "Golden Horde" of Genghis Khan. An inspection of the areas touched by the Hun and Khan migrations in relation to what has been found in terms of haplogroup structure in Europe today (a very small amount of C3 in Germany; Q all the way into Scandinavia) supports this contention. Of course he Huns mixed heavily with the Alans and the Osterogoths and other Germanic tribes so it gets very complicated and will ultimately prove difficult, but not impossibe, to tease out the various components. As usual, I see ancient DNA from studies in Europe coming to our rescue in wresting with these issues - give it two years and we will have a clearer picture.

        DKF

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by DKF
          I have explored the matter in the following study:
          http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsi...NAEvidence.pdf.

          We have some ancient DNA samples to work with (see other posts on this Forum - "R1a1 Hindu Brahmins, ........" for this info). It would make sense to look at the haplogroups most prevalent in the regions from which the Huns (Xiong Nu) appear to have originated. It is my opinion that R1a1 predominated as it does in many Altai tribes today, along with Q and K2. I believe that C3 came later with the "Golden Horde" of Genghis Khan. An inspection of the areas touched by the Hun and Khan migrations in relation to what has been found in terms of haplogroup structure in Europe today (a very small amount of C3 in Germany; Q all the way into Scandinavia) supports this contention. Of course he Huns mixed heavily with the Alans and the Osterogoths and other Germanic tribes so it gets very complicated and will ultimately prove difficult, but not impossibe, to tease out the various components. As usual, I see ancient DNA from studies in Europe coming to our rescue in wresting with these issues - give it two years and we will have a clearer picture.

          DKF

          I agree that as the years progress we should definately have more information and a clearer view of many things in the genetic world.

          Comment


          • #6
            David:

            very interesting article. Indeed R1a seems a good candidate. One thing that surprised me though was your mention of K2. where was that found? I didn't think there was any K2 around there.

            cacio

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            • #7
              Attila my uncle?

              I down loaded the above article, but haven't read it yet. If "Attila The Hun" was R1a1, then he and I have a common paternal ancestor from way back when. I always wanted to be related to someone famous, but I was hoping for that someone to have been more respectable.

              R1a1 (Norwegian variety)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by cacio
                David:

                very interesting article. Indeed R1a seems a good candidate. One thing that surprised me though was your mention of K2. where was that found? I didn't think there was any K2 around there.

                cacio
                Small amounts in Norway, Shetland and the Faroe Islands. My Shetland participant's closest matches are from Azerbaijan.

                DKF.

                Comment


                • #9
                  David:

                  I see. So it wasn't found in Central Asia, just indirectly in N Europe. A different hypothesis would be that those K2 are really mediterranean. there's plenty of K2 in the mediterranean.

                  cacio

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by cacio
                    David:

                    I see. So it wasn't found in Central Asia, just indirectly in N Europe. A different hypothesis would be that those K2 are really mediterranean. there's plenty of K2 in the mediterranean.

                    cacio
                    Perhaps I failed to make myself clear. K2 is indeed found in Central Asia. The closest matches from my Shetlander are in Ajerbaijan which is in Central Asia (albeit the western part). His haplotype is not even remotely similar to those from the Mediterranean. Hyerdahl always considered Azerbaijan the "home" of the Asser, the Asian people associated with Odin and the Ynglinga Dynasty in Scandinavia as described in Snorri's Heimskringla. Huns and Alans settled there prior to the time of Attila. The fabled city of Asgaard, left in the hands of Odin's two brothers at the time of his departoure for Gamla Uppsala, Sweden is near Azerbaijan.

                    DKF.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Azerbaijan is in the Caucasus, so, despite the fact that they speak a turkic language, they are probably closer to the caucasus and the middle east (as is Turkey, after all). So it is possible that any smudge of K2 came from the south (Armenia, Iran, Turkey) rather than from Central Asia, where it is not found.

                      I agree with you though that, from those places, K2 may have been picked up indirectly in various barbaric invasions.

                      which paper finds K2 in Azerbaijan? Regueiro et al find 3.5% K2 in Iran. Weale on Armenia doesn't distinguish K2, though I suspect some may exist. Cinnioglu finds around 2.5% K2 n Anatolia. So these two countries seem potential sources of Azeri K2.

                      cacio

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by DKF
                        I have explored the matter in the following study:
                        http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsi...NAEvidence.pdf.

                        We have some ancient DNA samples to work with (see other posts on this Forum - "R1a1 Hindu Brahmins, ........" for this info). It would make sense to look at the haplogroups most prevalent in the regions from which the Huns (Xiong Nu) appear to have originated. It is my opinion that R1a1 predominated as it does in many Altai tribes today, along with Q and K2. I believe that C3 came later with the "Golden Horde" of Genghis Khan. An inspection of the areas touched by the Hun and Khan migrations in relation to what has been found in terms of haplogroup structure in Europe today (a very small amount of C3 in Germany; Q all the way into Scandinavia) supports this contention. Of course he Huns mixed heavily with the Alans and the Osterogoths and other Germanic tribes so it gets very complicated and will ultimately prove difficult, but not impossibe, to tease out the various components. As usual, I see ancient DNA from studies in Europe coming to our rescue in wresting with these issues - give it two years and we will have a clearer picture.

                        DKF
                        I also found your study very interesting. A few comments: First, I would think that the presence of haplogroup G in western europe could be the result of the Alans presence among the Hun who invaded western europe.

                        Second, the term "Ing", which is believed the refer to Ingwaz or Frey, was around well before the hunnish invasions. The north sea germanic people were called Ingvaeones by Pliny in 80 CE and by Tacitus in 98 CE. According to Tacitus, the Ingvaeones were one of the three tribes descended from the three sons of Mannus, son of Tuisto, progenitor of all the Germanic peoples.

                        I am also hopeful that ancient DNA can shed some light on many of the mysteries surrounding the origins of the germanic peoples.

                        John

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Csango/Huns/Ashkenazi

                          Just an aside, but my DNA Tribes results showed Hungarian Ashkenazi as my second highest score, which was expected. The first was Csango, which is a group of Hungarian speakers from eastern Rumania. The funny thing is, the Csango claim descent from one of the sons of Attila, and I do have a bit of an "oriental" cast to my face. So I have to wonder if some Hunnish genes survived among the Ashkenazi in Eastern Europe. Attila's capital was in Hungary, by the way.

                          My Y DNA is E3b1c1.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by cacio
                            J Man:

                            In a way though, what is surprising is how little of all of these there are in Europe. Perhaps the impact of the Huns was really small, unless they really had a lot of Germanic tribes in them.

                            cacio
                            Eventhough there may be little Hunnish DNA in Europe, I think this is due to the fact that perhaps many of the babies of women who were raped were killed off at birth or even aborted using homeopathic solutions.This is only conjecture, but the shame of rape must have been a motivating factor.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Magyar Y-DNA

                              Originally posted by J Man
                              I wonder if the Huns left any traces at all of Y-DNA in Europe? I am thinking that they most likely did not.

                              Anyone have any ideas about which haplogroups the Huns may have had? I am speculating most likely O, R1a1, C and possibly N.
                              Not that I am equating Hun and Magyar DNA, but our Hungarian Bukovina project (which is mainly composed of Szekely) now has 82 members, and shows the following Y-DNA numbers and percentages:

                              R1a= 20= 24%
                              I1b=17=21%
                              R1b1=11=13%
                              E3b=10=12%
                              J2=6==7%
                              I1A=5=6%
                              G2=4=5%
                              I1c/I1b2a=3=4%
                              Q=3=4%
                              One each N and L

                              Project Website:

                              http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...ovinaSurnames/

                              By the way, my friend Bernadett Csanyi's article on Magyar/Szekely DNA (including y-DNA findings from ancient Hungarian burial sites) has been accepted for publication by The Annals of Human Genetics, and should be in print within the next three months. She is working with a research group in Hungary at the University of Szeged.

                              Beth Long
                              Last edited by Beth Long; 6 December 2007, 03:27 PM. Reason: misspelling

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