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  • Y Haplo H in England = Romany?

    There is an ever growing belief that Y Haplo H in England / UK is likely
    Romany / Gypsy descent.

    There are 7 USA surnames in Haplo H, and 6 of which can trace back to early Maryland and Virginia 1700's - 1800's

    My Lock(e) family of England clearly has ties to several known Gypsy family's and is named as a known Gypsy family themselves.

    DNA testing between 2 Locke men, 1 in the USA 1 in England proved to be a 65/67 match. My English cousin has direct ties to the Boswell family whom are proven Gypsys.

    Another possible cousin who hasn't DNA tested yet, has direct blood ties to the Smith, Perry and Hall family's of which the Smith and Perry familys are also known Gypsy family's in England.

    My USA immigrant amazingly has close associations or blood ties to the Smith's, Perry's and Hall family's in Maryland 1700's.

    The 7 USA surnames in Y Haplo H are; Lock(e), Hite, Jewell, Bailey, Campbell, Carter, Ruffin.

    All but Campbell can trace back to early Maryland and Virginia.
    Considering the rarity of Y Haplo H, why are we finding a larger then normal population of Haplo H in Maryland and Virginia? I think I can now explain that.
    After doing much reading on the Romany people, I came across an artical which stated that many Gypys were deported to American and Australia.

    One of the known shipping routes was England to Barbados to Maryland 1700's, and if this is the exact route the 6 family's took to America, it would then explain why we are seeing a larger then expected population of Haplo H in Maryland and Virginia.

    And I have 1 proven source for this shipping route.
    Rev. Richard Lock of the Church of England traveled from England to Barbados to Maryland USA in the late 1600's.
    So is it plausable that some of the Gypsy family's of England were rounded up and deported using this same route? Seems likely to me, and it would explain a lot as to why there are 6 possibly 7 different familys in this rare DNA group to be found in early Maryland and Virginia.

    While it hasn't been proven if the other family's are Gypsy's, we can pretty much presume because of our rare Haplo Group, that it seems likely all 7 family's are of Romany descent.

    There is to much close association in the Lock family to have not been Gypsy's in England. If and when DNA matches can be found in England of peoples of the same surnames in the USA, and if the English cousins do have a Gypsy heritage, then we will have proven a Romany existance in early
    Maryland and Virginia.

    This is still an on going study and no conclusions have been made yet. But things are shaping up quite nicely to point to the origin of Haplo H in England as being Romany / Gypsy. A lot more research is needing to be done yet, but the early findings sure seem to point to the English Gypsy's as the origin of Haplo H's existance in early Maryland and Virginia.

    A record was found by a cousin of mine which is a pretty amazing record.

    Oaths of Fidelity 1778 MD, transcribed by Bettie Carothers
    Montgomery Co. Maryland
    Surnames; Bosswell, Bailey, Campbell, Carter ,Henry Lock and William Jewell.

    In this one record alone, it names 5 surnames known to be in Haplo Group H.
    Boswell is the only surname not proven to be in Haplo H, but it is a well known Gypsy surname in England.

    While we can not prove the 5 surnames in Montgomery County Maryland are related to the same surnames in the Y Haplo H project, it seems very likely there is some kind of kinship here.

    I am now very convinced the English surnames in Y Haplo H are of Romany
    / Gypsy descent, I just need to back that theory up using the paper records.

    Donald Locke

  • #2
    Donald:

    amazing work you've done on your results, which are so rare. It all seems to make sense.

    I wonder if eventually you'll even be able to go a step further and find matches (perhaps not so close) elsewhere in Central Europe or where gypsies are more common. Unfortunately, there are very few gypsy results around.

    cacio

    Comment


    • #3
      Actually Caio, we do have a Mr. Vasko who's family came from Hungry who is a close match with the other English / USA participants.

      Hungry does have a Gypsy population I am told, but Mr. Vasko doesn't seem to know much about his family in Hungry.

      Vasko's closest match is, he is a 31/37 match to Locke and Jewell surnames.
      Jewell is a 37/37 match to me, Locke. And Jewell and Lock(e) have a lot in common. Both our family's came from England, both with a proven paper trail, and both lived in Maryland early 1700's and both lived in Virginia mid 1700's and both our family's lived in Barren County Kentucky by 1800.

      To weird huh! Yet Lock(e) and Jewell never seem to associate with each other and I have not found any marriages between the 2 family's while in the USA.

      To make things even more odd here. I was sent a reference to a 1778 Maryland record.

      Oaths of Fidelity 1778 MD
      Montgomery County Maryland
      Surnames of men who took the Oath were;
      Bosswell, Bailey, Campbell, Carter ,Henry Lock and William Jewell.
      There were many others who took the Oath, but this is all I have at the moment.

      Boswell is a proven English Gypsy surname, but not proven to be in Haplo Group H. I know of no Boswell men who have DNA tested yet.
      But here in this one record, we have the very same surnames we find in Haplo H project, Lock, Bailey, Campbell, Carter, Jewell !

      What I haven't proven is, are the men in Montgomery County Maryland related to the men in the Y Haplo H DNA project. That I am still working on.
      We do have 1 proven Lock / Boswell marriage in England that is recorded in the records.

      More and more is pointing to the direction that Y Haplo H in England / UK has a direct relationship with the English Gypsy family's.
      After much reading on the English Romany, it now appears likely that in time, we will also find Haplo H in Australia as it was reported that the Gypsy family's were being deported out of England to America and Australia.

      My English Locke cousins clearly have direct and close blood ties to the
      Gypsy family's in England, they are the Gypsy Smith's and Perry's and Hall.
      Not sure if the Hall family are Gypsy's yet, as well as to the Boswell's.

      One of the things I am being told is, it was very common for a Gypsy to change surnames at the drop of a hat. They often took on their mothers maiden name to hide their identity. That poses a big problem!
      I don't know that for a fact to be true and factual, but that is what several Romany researchers are telling me about the Gypsy's.

      I do know several Boswell family researchers are claiming Lock is an Alias name of Boswell, and that Lock is one and the same people as Boswell.
      That can't be true because the Lock's can trace back to the late 1600's, long before their association with the Boswell family.
      I do believe that to hide their identity, that the Boswell's could have used Lock(e) as an Alias name, but they are clearly wrong in the assumption we are one and the same family. Lock was Lock long before the Lock / Boswell marriage.

      But I am also being told that one Lock male had changed his name to Boswell and that he was buried as a Boswell not Lock. That I am still checking on to see if there is any truth to that.

      Like I said, there is still a lot of research needing to be done, but the early indications are that Haplo Group H in England has a direct relationship with the English Gypsy family's. This in turn may also play a roll in any other European Gypsys found to be in Haplo H, possibly even the 1 from Hungry.

      I sent all this information to Bennett Greenspan on Friday, all he had to say was "WOW!". I guess that was a good WOW not a bad WOW

      I get frustrated with the previous Gypsy DNA studies because they failed to tell us exactly where they tested, and what surnames were involved.
      Yes they gave a general idea of the area, but not exact areas.
      Had I had access to that information, it could help with my project.

      I am trying to contact as many proven Gypsy family's in England as possible in hopes I can get them to DNA test. No telling what we will find out once we have proven English Gypsy family's DNA tested.

      Don

      Comment


      • #4
        Technique

        Don,

        You've accomplished quite a feat there, in being able to connect so many data points. I'm sure you'll agree that luck plays a big role, but perhaps you have suggestions for other researchers? I'm referring particularly in your techniques for overcoming the natural reluctance of many test subjects to participate.

        This is not always a slam-dunk, even in the best of circumstances. I consider that my case is difficult, owing to the unpopularity of the ancestor I am researching. But when I think of the historical persecutions the Gypsy people were subject to . . . well, I imagine DNA testing must be a tough sell for some of them.

        Any suggestions on addressing their objections?

        Jack

        Comment


        • #5
          Donald.

          I agree that the story, as far as it has developed, does seem to hang together. Thanks for posting it and I hope you will keep us up-to-date on your progress.

          I was not aware that English Rom were exiled to the Middle Colonies so your research adds detail to the American Colonial panorama that for too long has been presented in cartoon form.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Tom
            Thanks for your support! After many emails across the globe to many so called Romany people experts, it appears I am on my own with the case I am trying to build. Not one has taken a vested interest in my findings.

            Of all the so called experts I have been in contact with, the few who did try to answer some of my questions, gave very vauge answers with no sources cited. I am a genealogist and when I am asked very specific questions, I cite my sources to help build that case. That isn't what I am getting from the so called experts! All have given me very vague answers and not one cited any sources for me to follow up on.

            Needless to say, I am quite frustrated at the moment. I will continue my research, but it appears the so called experts are to busy to take a look at my findings on the very subject they claim to be experts on.

            Some of the so called experts I have been in contact with, are book authors on the Romany people, University's who have Romany studies, other genealogists and other research groups working on the Romany people.
            Man if I can't get the so called "experts" involved on this case, then I have to ask myself, are they really such an expert on the subject? lol.

            So to have 1 person who can at least faintly see what it is I am looking at, helps keep my chin up lol.
            Won't the so called experts be shocked if I can ever actually prove my case using the paper records along with DNA testing! They would have let a layman figure something out that they could have gotten part of the credit for! lol.

            My hopes were that the case I am working on was interesting enough for some expert or study group to pick up on and help finish what I have started.
            So far, not one has an interest in my findings on the very subject they claim to be an expert on. Thats ok, I am used to working alone anyway, nothing new there

            Thanks
            Don

            Comment


            • #7
              Don,

              As per Clochaire, if you can get the Rom descendents involved, American and English, you have a project, you'll get the data and you will be able to make the case, or not.

              Is there a Rom notable you can enlist? Do the Rom have the equivalent of the Jewish Defense League? Can you get on Oprah?

              Comment


              • #8
                LOL get on Oprah!

                There are several notables like you mention, and that is who it is I am contacting and not getting much responce from.
                The Romany descendants themselves seem very interested in a
                Romnichel DNA project, which I have asked FTDNA if I could start that project. I asked to start that project on Monday and never got a responce from Leah at FTDNA. If I don't hear by thursday afternoon I will email them again.

                Only 1 is actually interested, but doesn't have the time to help.
                And your both right, by starting the Romnichel project, a lot more could be learned.

                I guess I never answered Clochaire, sorry about that!
                The primary thing is to know your family line well. Because I know my family history very well, and our family is so well documented back to the late 1690's, it helps get people interested in the DNA project.
                Email lists and message boards are a must! If you keep people up to date on the latest research, it keeps them in the loop and keeps them interested.

                My case is differnt, most folks wouldn't follow in my foot steps. I run a single surname study on the Lock / Locke surname. I have 1000's of refernces to the records, and have 100's of paper records on hand, not just on my own family line. My Lock(e) database alone has over 10,000 Lock(e)'s in it, mainly from the USA. And I transcribe all the USA census records which name
                Lock(e)'s in them. The census project is an ongoing project.

                So I have a lot of projects that keep me very busy. Few others do the kind of work that I do and very few would willingly follow in my footsteps lol.

                Constant contact with like minded people is the key to recruiting new participants. Keeping in touch with people of your surname on the email lists and message boards helps a lot.
                Between my web site, the email lists, and message boards, I get queries almost daily which also helps find new potential participants.

                It isn't easy by any means, some folks are a harder sell then others.
                The Brits are a much harder sell on the DNA subject then most American's that I have found.
                I know of one Brit Genealogical and historical society who refuses to get involved with DNA testing. They refuse to except that DNA can benefit our research, and that sadly doesn't help that this one society denounces the use of DNA testing.

                I have a Locke contact who is involved with this society and they made it painfully clear they do not agree that DNA testing can benefit our family tree research.
                When I do find a potential new participant, I show him examples of how DNA has helped in our research. For the skeptics, being able to see good examples of how DNA testing can help, very often gets them interested.
                It has taken me 2 years to get 46 Lock(e) men involved. That isn't many compared to many of the other surname projects.

                The last time I looked, there were over 10,000 Lock(e)'s in the USA alone listed in the phone directory. So 46 is a very low participation rate.
                Keep spreading the word, they will join if they get enough information.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Don,

                  The other thing that comes to mind is to interest a Maryland historic or genealogical organization in the project as that was the state where the Rom made landfall.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Donald-

                    Your story is very interesting and sounds very intriguing. DNA testing can be very helpful, but there are definite limitations - paper records are critical.

                    I am in a somewhat similar DNA situation. One of my Virginian family lines has African Y-DNA (tested on 2 distant branches) despite the family being entirely white (to our knowledge). Our earliest known ancestor was a William Hall(bc. 1735 - 1821). His family had a family tree in bible detailling the births of 12 or so of his kids and his 1821 will references 300+ acres, 2 daughters "negro woman", and slaves in his will. William's grandsons (or is it his great-grandsons? I forget) fought in the Confederate Army.

                    Unfortunately, I just can't seem to find any detail going back in time. Its possible that I could get some deeds, but I am more concerned about some other family lines currently and holding myself from any more genealogical expenses for time being.

                    Regarding your story, I was curious about your Rev. Richard Locke who traveled from England to Barbados to Maryland. Are you theorizing that he may have been somehow forced? The fact that he was a Reverend (Church of England or Catholic?), suggests that he was fairly assimilated and possibly of only partial Roma descent.

                    I don't know anything about Roma, but the following article suggests they first immigrated to England in the 16th century, probably no more than 150 years before your Richard Locke left England. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romnichal

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      MD Archives

                      Hi
                      Just jumping in here but do you have entry times for your families that may be Romany?
                      Sometimes this is an interactive link at MD Archives..
                      http://speccol.mdarchives.state.md.u...341/sc4341.cfm

                      If not it is called Supplement to Early Settlers..
                      I did notice that a few of your names come c. 1678-80 sometimes that means Irish who are transported and could be significant..

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Kathleen Carrow
                        Hi
                        Just jumping in here but do you have entry times for your families that may be Romany?
                        Sometimes this is an interactive link at MD Archives..
                        http://speccol.mdarchives.state.md.u...341/sc4341.cfm

                        If not it is called Supplement to Early Settlers..
                        I did notice that a few of your names come c. 1678-80 sometimes that means Irish who are transported and could be significant..
                        I guess I should have said that if you find a particular person there on the Settler Index you can then order the warrant or Headright document that that person came in under..
                        Here is an example:

                        Jewell, John
                        WC2:206 Film No.:
                        Transported 1679
                        MSA SC 4341-

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Jay
                          No I was only using Rev. Richard Lock as an example of someone who used that shipping route, England > Barbados > Maryland. I know nothing about the man, but just using his record as an example of the shipping route he took.

                          Someone sent me a 1600's Indentured Servant list which clearly showed many were bound as a servant to get to America, and that they too took the same shipping route, England to Barbados, to Maryland. So it seems very plausable that a good many folks in early Maryland and Virginia were
                          Indentured Servants. They would have served 3 to 4 years to work off their debt.

                          I haven't traced the Hall family, but I have I think 7 documented Lock / Hall marriages, mainly in Kentucky. And one Hall is named on a early 1700's Calvert County Maryland record with my Richard Lock ( not Rev. Richard Lock)

                          Don

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Just to make it clear, my Richard Lock is first found in Calvert County Maryland in 1728, likely a bit earlier. He is not one and the same
                            Rev. Richard Lock.

                            Kathleen, he would have came to America after 1699, but before 1728.
                            I have searched the records for years and have not located a ships passengers list with my immigrant. But I also wasn't searching the Barbados ships lists either as I had no idea until just the other day, that Barbados was the likely route.
                            Thanks
                            Don

                            Comment

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