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  • Saxons and Normans found in Sicily

    U5a1a - Saxon or Norman? (in the last 1,500 years).

    There is a U5a1a connection with French/German mainland Europeans - that were likely to have migrated into the UK (maybe during Norman conquest, or even earlier in the 5 century from Saxons).

    This is article I found "Sicilian Peoples: The Normans":

    http://www.bestofsicily.com/mag/art171.htm

    This graphic shows the two people Saxon and Norman together:

    http://www.bestofsicily.com/genealogy_markers.gif

    This information about U5a1a corresponds with the same migration found in the UK.

    The question still remains - is whether U5a1a came from Scandinavia then into the UK or from central Europe and fan out into other European populations?

    I think - like the R1b1c9 - at one stage U5a1a was found mostly in the North Germanic regions/tribes - among people of Nordic Europe/Scandinavians that developed into Norman/Vikings later on. We are living proof in our family that these people came into Sicily - during the Christendom era.

  • #2
    Are there any Sicilian L1 SNP members out there?

    Are there any Sicilian L1 SNP members out there?

    I remember reading a paper - that Lombard's in North Italy and Longobard's from Germany were not related - this can't be true.

    I think if there there was L1 SNP research done in North Italy and in Sicily - this could shed light in this needed investigation in this area of study. It would be interesting to see what extent L1 SNP members are seen in Italy as a whole. I hope North Italians can see that some Sicilians are genetic cousins.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by JR-R1b
      The question still remains - is whether U5a1a came from Scandinavia then into the UK or from central Europe and fan out into other European populations?
      My project has a Polish, a Ukrainian, and a Lithuanian U5a1a:

      http://www.ftdna.com/ftGroups_mtdna_...ICWEBSITE=TRUE

      The Lithuanian is kit 99198. His HVR2 mutations 203A and 204C seem rather unusual for U5a1a.

      Comment


      • #4
        This could also explain - why I have more matches in the UK.

        This could explain - why I have more matches in the UK - (in Wales). I don't believe it's because the database has more British people or that I should take the information on 'bestofsicily.com' site as a grain of salt. There are connections here. This information correlates with the history that is well documented in Santo Di Camastra ME and Randazzo CT - as having a Norman population ruling the town. If we were peasants and raped - why do I own a majority of the land and have Frankish names in my family. I'm pretty sure that the towns people know that I'm an ancient landlord and they are the ancient employees. Founding out that my wife - had the same U5a1a genes - had proven that others in our town (with land) came from the same family. U5a1a - is a Norman haplogroup - I believe our U5a1a cousins in Sicily own lands in the NW and Northern areas of Sicily. Patti in Patti and Serraino in Trapani. I believe these people are also related to the Spanish Royals also.

        My R1b1c* matches mostly with the Welsh. My U5a1a matches mostly with the Scots. Coming from Sicily - our family needs an explanation. The The Norman conquest - links the two regions Sicily and the UK.

        I found this:

        The Norman conquest

        Although the Norman invasion had its most pronounced effect in England, it also changed the course of Welsh history.

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites/normans/

        Wales is again conquered - by a brutal Norman invasion with English-speaking followers.

        http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/s.../normans.shtml

        Comment


        • #5
          Maybe U5a1a - did come Finland/Estonia regions moved into places like Poland/Germany - then moved/fanned out into eastern Europe and other areas of Europe. It's possible that then the U5a1a were found among the Celts who are found in Central Europe / Alps regions. From your results that sound Goths. This would back-up with the Visi-Goths in the Spanish population.

          Originally posted by lgmayka
          My project has a Polish, a Ukrainian, and a Lithuanian U5a1a:

          http://www.ftdna.com/ftGroups_mtdna_...ICWEBSITE=TRUE

          The Lithuanian is kit 99198. His HVR2 mutations 203A and 204C seem rather unusual for U5a1a.

          Comment


          • #6
            English and Germanic Names - found in Sicily - Messina and Catania

            Azzolina - ACELINE - Feminine form of English Acelin meaning little noble one.

            Aliberti - ADELBERT - Variant of German Adalbert meaning bright nobility.

            Originary Santo Stefano di Camastra was called "Santo Stefano di Mistretta",and in this way it is mentioned in Norman-Swabian documents (documenti normanno-svevi).

            http://sicilia.indettaglio.it/eng/co...icamastra.html

            http://www.chivalricorders.org/nobility/peersici.htm

            The Normans

            The wild country town Randazzo, Peter of Aragon...

            http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/...ROS/2/3C*.html

            Comment


            • #7
              Ace - Azzolina

              The girl's name Aceline \a-celi-ne, ace-line\ is of French origin, and its meaning is "highborn".

              Aceline - is an uncommon Highborn baby name for girls.

              Aceline - noble at birth - baby girl name - France (Azzolina)

              ACELET: Variant of English Acelin, meaning "noble at birth."

              ACELIN: English diminutive form of French Asce, meaning "little noble one."

              ASCE: Old French name, derived from German Azzo, meaning "noble at birth."

              AZZO: Old German name meaning "noble at birth." (Azzolina)

              Name Origin and Name Meaning of Acelin

              Diminutive form of Old French Asce, Ace from Old German Azzo meaning "noble; high birth." Ezzelin was the form in which it took root in Italy. Common in the 13th century, it gave rise to various surnames, such as Aslin, Ashlin, Asling, Acelet. The name is not in use anymore in France.

              Diminutive form of Old French Asce, Ace from Old German Azzo meaning "noble; high birth." The name is not in use in France anymore.

              Comment


              • #8
                From Francavilla ME to Randazzo CT of Sicily

                1195 AD - Caggeggi/kaggeg Group - Gualtieri ME (Swedish)

                http://lnx.comune.gualtieri.me.it/in...d=18&Itemid=30

                Kaggeg - Kaggegi - Caggegi
                Swedish: Kaggeg - keg
                English: Keg
                Icelandic: Kaggeg - barrel, keg, big, flashy car

                Last Name: Raciti Italian: from Greek rakhites ‘mountain dweller’.

                Raciti (ra`khiti) -- Long. i ra`khiti (plurale di ra`khitu), voce simile al greco Rakhites ma con significato diverso. La base greca, o vocabolo affine, e` - Longobardese

                Lombardic RACCHETTI/Raciti - 1700 AD

                Comment


                • #9
                  RACHITES - Poland

                  RACHITES - Jewish Records Indexing - Poland

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Icelandic - Kaggagerði - Kaggeg - Caggegi

                    Keg is the name of a Dutch family, found at Zaandam, North Holland since the early 17th century.

                    It's a Norse name for a cooper, a barrel maker.

                    Keg is an English family name, dating to 1511, under Keig/Kegg (Reaney and Wilson, p. 202).

                    keg Look up keg at Dictionary.com 1452 AD, from O.N. kaggi "keg, cask," of Old Norse origin. Specific sense of "barrel of beer" is from 1945.

                    The word keg comes from the Middle English word kag; the term is of Scandinavian origin; from Old Norse kaggi.

                    keg (n) A small barrel or cask. Ice kaggi (a keg), Swe kagga, Nor kagge (a keg, a round mass).

                    keg

                    [Date: 1600-1700; Origin: cag 'barrel' (15-18 centuries), from Old Norse kaggi]
                    a round wooden or metal container with a flat top and bottom, used for storing beer
                    -see also barrel barrel keg beer/bitter BrE (=beer served from a keg)

                    Icelandic equivalents of the English place-names:

                    Kegworth (Leics.);Kaggagerði. Old name Cacheworde. Possibly ‘enclosure of a man called Cægga (adapted to Kaggi).;

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Links... Isle of Man - Sicily - The Triskelion

                      Old Norse was the Germanic language spoken by the inhabitants of Scandinavia and their overseas settlements during the Viking Age, until about 1300. It evolved from the older Proto-Norse, in the 8th century.

                      Spoken in:

                      Scandinavia, Iceland, Greenland, the Faroes, Scotland, Ireland, England and Wales, Isle of Man, Vinland, the Volga.

                      Old Icelandic was essentially identical to Old Norwegian and together they formed the Old West Norse dialect of Old Norse. The Old East Norse dialect was spoken in Denmark and Sweden and settlements in Russia, England and Normandy. The Old Gutnish dialect was spoken in Gotland and in various settlements in the East. In the 11th century, it was the most widely spoken European language ranging from Vinland in the West to the Volga in the East. In Russia it survived longest in Novgorod and probably lasted into the 13th century. My R1b1c* exact matches are mainly seen in these areas (North Germanic language).

                      According to the World Encyclopedia of Flags, by A. Znamierovski, 1999: 'The triskelion (from the Greek "three-legged") is one of the oldest symbols known to mankind. The earliest representations of it were found in prehistoric rock carvings in northern Italy. It also appears on Greek vases and coins from the 6th and 8th centuries BC., and was revered by Norse and Sicilian peoples. The Sicilian version has a representation of the head of Medusa in the center. The Manx people believe that the triskelion came from Scandinavia. According to Norse mythology, the triskelion was a symbol of the movement of the sun through the heavens.' Jarig Bakker , 27 April 2000

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Cimbri Nation - or Normans?

                        Did The Cimbri Nation make its way to Sicily? Or were they Normans.

                        The Cimbri Nation of Jutland, Denmark and the
                        Danelaw, England

                        www.davidkfaux.org/Cimbri-Chronology.pdf

                        R1b1c10 Data

                        http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by JR-R1b
                          Did The Cimbri Nation make its way to Sicily? Or were they Normans.

                          The Cimbri Nation of Jutland, Denmark and the
                          Danelaw, England

                          www.davidkfaux.org/Cimbri-Chronology.pdf

                          R1b1c10 Data

                          http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm
                          No, certainly not directly. The Cimbri made it as far south as Vercellae Italy where in 101 BC they and their other Celtic allies were soundly defeated. The survivors (which probably included some Gesatae, Insubres, Hellvetii, Senones, and Boii) made their way back to Jutland (according to Appian), although some believe that part of the army settled in the region of the Asiago Plateau (Alpine Italy).

                          The R1b1c10 in Sicily is in all likelihood due to large migrations of northern Italians to that area in Medieval times. I expect that there were a few R1b1c10 Normans whose ancestors were from Denmark. However, some have estimated that only at most 5% of Sicilian Y-DNA can be expected to trace to the Normans. Thus at most one in five of the Normans (probably way too large) might have been R1b1c10, so there can only be a small sprinkling from Normandy - and their haplotypes would be indistinguishable from the more recently arrived descendants of the northern Italians.

                          DKF.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Norse Compatriot Tribes: found in Language and Blood.

                            Norse Compatriot Tribes:

                            Angles - Anglo - Cimbri - Cymru - Compari - Kombrogos - Compatriot - Compatriota - Fellow Countryman - Galles - Wales.

                            The Cimbri were a Celtic tribe who together with the Teutones and the Ambrones threatened the Roman Republic in the late 2nd century BC. The ancient sources located their home of origin in the northern Jutland.

                            1. The Cimbri were Germanic-speaking, and the information given about names and words in the ancient authors is inaccurate.

                            2. The Cimbri were original Germanic-speaking, but having absorbed a large amount of Celtic-speaking individuals on their long journey down through Central and Western Europe, they adopted the Celtic language.

                            3. The Cimbri were Germanic-speaking, but due to the importance of the Celtic culture, the elite of the Germanic tribes were bilingual (cf. Celtic loanwords like *rīkaz "noble", *ambahtaz "servant")

                            4. The Cimbri spoke a Celtic language in their North Jutlandic homeland already

                            5. The Cimbri were a Celtic tribe originating in central Europe, and they had only the name in common with the Cimbri of Jutland.

                            Descendants

                            The population of modern-day Himmerland claims to be the heirs of the ancient Cimbri. The adventures of the Cimbri are described by the Danish nobel-prize-winning author, Johannes V. Jensen, himself born in Himmerland, in the novel Cimbrernes Tog (1922), included in the cycle Den lange Rejse (Eng. The Long Journey, 1923). The so-called Cimbrian bull ("Cimbrertyren"), a sculpture made by the artist Anders Bundgaard, was erected 14 April 1937 on a central town square in Aalborg, the capital of the province.

                            In Northern Italy, a Germanic language traditionally called Cimbrian is spoken in some villages near the cities of Verona and Vicenza. Since the 14th century, it was believed that the speakers were the direct descendants of the Cimbrians defeated at Vercelli (some hundred kilometers to the west). However, this is most certainly not true.[15] The language is in fact related to the Austro-Bavarian dialects of German like many other Upper German dialects in Northern Italy, it is only more isolated and therefore less recognizable as German. The name was either indigenous (from Zimmer = "timber"?) or given to them by Italian humanists who wanted to find this "living fossil" of antiquity.

                            The Danish Vikings (and possibly some Jutes who arrived in Kent, Hampshire, and the Isle of Wight circa 449 AD) who settled in the English Danelaw doubtless included Cimbri descendants from the Limfjord in Himmerland. In addition to providing detailed archaeological, historical and linguistic data to provide a chronological perspective relating to the Cimbri and their associates the Teutones, a recent study [2] focuses on genetic data. The Y-chromosome "signatures" of some from the Danish speaking area of the Danelaw (but not elsewhere in England or in Ireland at all), as well as regions believed to be settled by the Cimbri in Iron Age times (e.g., southeastern Norway), possess the single nucleotide polymorphism marker S28. This marker, which defines the phylogenetic category R1b1c10 is found at highest concentration in the Alpine areas of Germany, Switzerland and Italy and fans out across the area of Central Europe, as far east as Greece, known to have been inhabited by the La Tene Celts.

                            Wales (Welsh: Cymru; is one of the four constituent countries of the United Kingdom. Wales is located in the south-west of Great Britain and is bordered by England to the east, the Bristol Channel (Môr Hafren) to the south and the Irish Sea (Môr Iwerddon) to the west and north, and also by the estuary of the River Dee (Afon Dyfrdwy) in the north-east. Wales is the largest principality in the world.

                            Cymru from Cymro < Br. *kom-brogos "Fellow Countryman" < *kom: near, with (cf. cum); (m)brogos: *mrog-, Celtic varient of IE merg-, "boundary, border"

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                            • #15
                              The word 'Compari' is still used by Italians and Greeks.

                              The word 'Compari' is still used by Italians and Greeks. How knows - this word could date back - when the idea of nations were first thought of.

                              This could have also been a Norse/Danish salute - among the Celtic-Norse tribe.

                              It could also be related to the Christian faith - a sons Godfather, best man...

                              I feel there could be a connection with a dead language - and a common gene:

                              R1b1c10...

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