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  • Are there any fair Norman-Sicilians out there?

    Are there any fair Norman-Sicilians out there?

    I am a R1b1c* (SNP tested). If I am S28+ (R1b1c10):
    Would I be considered as Danish and Norse Viking descendant?
    In other words of Norman heritage.

    Nevertheless - I am a U5a1a - which would most likely be considered as Northern - Northman - Norman.

    My history and blood is starting to make sense - on how it found its way to Sicily. How a Northern and Western European haplogroup finding its way to the Mediterranean regions.

    So what is the percent of Northern and Western Europeans found in Sicily? Is it something like 25%...

    We are located North and West of the island Sicily. We mostly come from Messina and from Palermo.

    How much of an impact did Normans and Germanic people have on the island of Sicily?
    Last edited by JR-R1b; 9 October 2007, 06:14 AM.

  • #2
    Normans in Sicily

    There's got to be large percentage Norman-Sicilians out there:

    Haplogroups:

    I: 15%
    R: 25% - some of these members
    K: 10% - some of these members

    I would say that less than half of the Sicilian population can be traced to Gallico and Nordic populations of Europe. The question is whether the Normans/Vikings had made a similar impact in Sicily - as they did in the UK (East England, and in Wales)?

    The fact is that is the Semitic people on the island were forced to convert to Christianity. I believe at least 35% of the population.

    How much impact did Indo-Europeans make on the island of Sicily during the 10th - 14th Centries?

    Wales is still referred to Gallia. Gallo-Sicilian is still about. I hate how people - presume that all Sicilians are dark. It's our Stereo-type that existed around the world. Try telling a Anglos - how it's possible to have two daughters - one blonde and one brunette. It's like Prince Harry - explaining his red hair.

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    • #3
      JR-R1b:

      I would say these numbers are an overestimate of the direct impact of Norman or nothern populations into Sicily. There must have been some impact, but I doubt it was like that.

      As for the data you cite, Capelli 2005 did indeed find some IxI1b in Sicily, which may be a sign of Nordic influences. These are the percentages:
      Northwest Sicily: 5.5%
      Eastern Sicily: 3.4 %
      South west Sicily: 15.7%
      So the 15% seems only of the Palermo area, not of the rest of Sicily.

      cacio

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      • #4
        My maternal grandfather's sister was reportedly a platinum blond, but I have no idea what haplogroup she belonged to...Vinnie

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        • #5
          The Norman Influence was substantial.

          In terms of physical appearance you are referring to autosomal dna and phenotype-something that is immeasurable in both Y and Mitochondrial DNA. However, a relationship must exist between them,but it is difficult to say since most phenotypes also exist in Scandinavia and we really do not know (unless someone will be kind enough to correct me) which phenotype, is not the most prevalent, but rather, the oldest.

          La Sicilia has a heavy Norman Influence and there are many (not vast) redheads,blondes, blue eyes. Especially in Palermo, Monreale. You can also examine some of the finest, if not the finest, examples of Norman Cathedrals anywhere in the world. Monreale houses the penultimate.

          The symbol of the island, the Trinacria, was probably brought to the island by the Normans or the Danes (pre Norman)as the Isle of Man shares the same symbol, but called the Triskellion. The Isle of Man also has a large predominance of Scandinavian influence.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Zaru
            La Sicilia has a heavy Norman Influence and there are many (not vast) redheads,blondes, blue eyes. Especially in Palermo, Monreale. You can also examine some of the finest, if not the finest, examples of Norman Cathedrals anywhere in the world. Monreale houses the penultimate.

            The symbol of the island, the Trinacria, was probably brought to the island by the Normans or the Danes (pre Norman)as the Isle of Man shares the same symbol, but called the Triskellion. The Isle of Man also has a large predominance of Scandinavian influence.
            To say that there is a heavy Norman influence in Sicily is misleading, although true in some respects.

            First of all, the Trinacria has been used as a symbol of Sicily since ancient times, at least as far back as the Roman Empire. In Homer's Odyssey, Sicily is referred to as Thrinakie and the figure in the center of the three legs is the Gorgon (Medusa), a character in Greek mythology. The Greeks and Romans certainly predate the Normans in Sicily. Read more about this at http://www.grifasi-sicilia.com/trinacria_gbr.htm

            Yes, the Norman influence in architecture is quite strong (and beautiful), along with other aspects of the culture. But to regard Norman influence in the population genetics of Sicily as strong is not supported by the history, in my view. One must remember that the first rule of population genetics is that the most ancient populations that first settled an area will continue to be the base and have the strongest presence in modern populations. The only exception to this rule is if there was some sort of population replacement later through disease wiping out most of the original population or by another people conquering the original population who then practiced some degree of apartheid that severely limited the opportunities to reproduce of the earlier population. That second possibility would probably include genocide as a method.

            The basic population genetics of Sicily is determined by the Neolithic migrations from Anatolia into the Balkans and Sicily/southern Italy. This occurred probably 6-9,000 years ago. The basic haplogroups found in populations heavily influenced by Neolithic migrations are mainly J2 and E3b. These are currently found at high levels in Sicily. So I think it's clear that there was no drastic population replacement of the original population of Sicily.

            My reading of Sicilian medieval history indicates that the Norman presence in Sicily was probably never very large. Also, the Norman rule only lasted for about 125 years. John Julian Norwich, an English historian of the Normans in Sicily, writes in his book that the Normans invaded Sicily with just 250 knights. It also took them a total of almost 30 years before they were able to fully take the island from the Muslim rulers. By shortly after 1100, the Norman rulers were using many of the leaders of the Muslim (Berber/Arab) and Greek-speaking Christians to administer the country's affairs, both in Palermo and around the island. Put all this together and I think it's clear that there were not many Norman men who actually settled in Sicily - if so, they would have been administering the affairs of the island.

            I suppose that you could claim that the Normans practiced some form of apartheid that limited the previous population's ability to reproduce, but I know of no evidence of that. Given that King Roger II was an admirer of many aspects of Islamic culture and practiced tolerance for other religions, that seems very unlikely.

            From all this, I would estimate that the Norman contribution to Sicily's gene pool is probably no more than 5%, at most approaching 10%.

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            • #7
              Excellent response, however, I did not state that the heavy influence was a gentic one, I simply made a generic statement, mainly because I have no specific evidence. The poster's inferrence was deriv ed from physical appearance and since there was a heavy historical influence in Sicilia, then, it is possible that the autosomal was a derivative of that.

              As for the Trinacria I was speaking solely about the symbol which has not been determined which of the island's predates which, which there is an obvious relationship.

              This thread bears similarities to the questions posed regarding the african influence in Sicilia (not genetic, but cultural), there must be a way to involve the genetic possibilities of those prior influences since they were substantial historically.

              Cheers!

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              • #8
                Looking for a graphical representation of Sicily's genetic data

                Looking for a graphical representation of Sicily's genetic data:

                This are a list of Regional/Country Occupiers in Sicilian History from (6000 BC to 2007 AD):

                Sicans, Sikels, Elymians, Phoenicians, Carthage, Greeks, Romans, Vandals, Goths, Arabs, Normans, Swabians, Angevins, Aragon, Spain, Savoy, Austria, and Italy.

                Is there any genetic data / or graphics showing the percentages - on these people mentioned above - in terms of Sicilian research?

                It would be great to have a visual on where all these types people are located mostly on the island - and how much of an impact in terms of percentages that we have on the island/state.

                We should create - a graphical representation of this data - like they do with the UK genetic data. I believe it would really unlock some of our history - and clear some stereotypes we have around the world .

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                • #9
                  https://www.familytreedna.com/surnam...projecttype=DG

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by JR-R1b
                    Looking for a graphical representation of Sicily's genetic data:

                    This are a list of Regional/Country Occupiers in Sicilian History from (6000 BC to 2007 AD):

                    Sicans, Sikels, Elymians, Phoenicians, Carthage, Greeks, Romans, Vandals, Goths, Arabs, Normans, Swabians, Angevins, Aragon, Spain, Savoy, Austria, and Italy.

                    Is there any genetic data / or graphics showing the percentages - on these people mentioned above - in terms of Sicilian research?

                    It would be great to have a visual on where all these types people are located mostly on the island - and how much of an impact in terms of percentages that we have on the island/state.

                    We should create - a graphical representation of this data - like they do with the UK genetic data. I believe it would really unlock some of our history - and clear some stereotypes we have around the world .
                    That is indeed a good question. Many of the aforementioned cultures would probably fall into the R1b generic mix, however, the Arabs that you mentioned may actually be of Berber origin or Moors from Mauretania which may skew that.

                    Some cultures (like the Normans) maintained what was already there, Roger indeed respected the Moorish predecessors (before they were slaughtered) and indeed there were many Africans living on the island in servitude. St. Benedict the Moor's parents were slaves in Palermo or Messina.

                    Can anyone get an actual genetic read on the Sicani or Sicels since they were thought to maybe be Phoenecians, it's possible that they would have been J2/1.

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                    • #11
                      Norman Sicilians

                      My maternal ancestry is from Palermo, Sicily and my mtDNA haplogroup is H13. My only H13 matches have English, French Canadian or Norwegian ancestry. I have suspected my ancestry is Norman, but I have read nothing about H13 as a typical Norman haplogroup.

                      Does anyone have any information about H13 as Norman? It is my understanding that even in Normandy the percentage of Normans with Scandanavia ancestry was fairly small and limited to the ruling class. Most Normans had Gallic or Flemish ancestry. Any truth to this?

                      I have some anecdotal evidence about a family Norman connection. My mother had red hair and her grandmother told her that red hair was a family trait. In Siciliy, red haired girls were sometimes referred to as a "normanna".
                      Also, I have family members with multiple sclerosis (MS). I have read that Sicily has very high rates of MS (considerablly higher than anywhere else in the Mediterranean) and it is suspected that it is due to the Norman genetic influence.

                      I would be very interested if anyone has any information about Normans and H13.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        AlexVA:

                        I don't think much is known about H13, but the paper that studied it most (Roostalu Origin and expansion of haplogroup H) finds that the highest frequencies are in the Levant and especially caucasus. It also estimates that it is one of the oldest and most diverse subgroups of haplogroup H. As such, it doesn't seem a good candidate for a Norman origin, if anything, quite the opposite. As usual, it's hard to say anything based on matches, because the samples are heavily skewed towards Northern and Western Europe.

                        so perhaps the Norman/blonde connection goes through some other lineage.
                        a few years back in the library I saw a detailed map of Italy (from the end of the XIX century) displaying the percentage of blonde people at the time. I wish I knew which book it was. Anyway, as expected, there was a clear gradient from NE to S. I forgot whether the Palermo area was more blonde than the rest of the south.

                        cacio

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                        • #13
                          I found a paper on:

                          Peopling of Three Mediterranean Islands (Corsica,
                          Sardinia, and Sicily) Inferred by Y-Chromosome
                          Biallelic Variability

                          hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJPA_2003_v121_p270-279.pdf

                          According to this paper the three most Haplogroups found in Sicily are these below:


                          Y-DNA: M172 - Haplogroup J2

                          Y-DNA: M173 - Haplogroup R1

                          mtDNA: Haplogroup H


                          Has any one be able to found - a recent paper?

                          Are the numbers found in 2003 study - not showing the whole picture?

                          I'd like to put something together - a graphical representing this data about Sicily. I'd like try to show - where each of the main Haplogroups can be located on the island.

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                          • #14
                            JR-R1b

                            If you are interested in Sicily, you can check the following paper about Y:
                            Capelli - Population structure in the Mediterranean basin 2005 Annals of Human Genetics

                            The paper distinguishes 3 regions, NW,SE and E sicily

                            A brief discussion appeared in a previous post:

                            http://www.ftdna.com/forum/showpost....2&postcount=54

                            cacio

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                            • #15
                              The PDF of the distribution of different haplogroups found in Sicily

                              I've put this PDF together - based on those figures from -

                              Y: Capelli - Population structure in the Mediterranean basin 2005 Annals of Human Genetics.

                              I tried to show - a graphically representation of the distribution of different haplogroups found in Sicily

                              http://www.geocities.com/johnraciti2...ups_Sicily.pdf

                              Not as much - Nords I thought there would be. But remember some of the R's are also seen as nordic/euro's.

                              Could some of those R's have been there before the Greeks? This could make some of them natives.

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