Announcement

**lgmayka** · 23 September 2007, 09:01 PM

Have you uploaded your results into the public Ysearch database, via the hyperlink on your Y-DNA Matches tab? (You can change the name to NameWithheld if you wish to remain anonymous.) What is your Ysearch ID?

Have you joined the Polish Project, of which I am administrator?

FamilyTreeDNA - Genetic Testing for Ancestry, Family History & Genealogy

http://www.ftdna.com/public/polish

With our premier suite of DNA tests and the world’s most comprehensive matching database...your DNA has met its match!

**brian87** · 24 September 2007, 02:39 AM

thanks . I just joined the Polish project and I was already on Y-search . I just wanted opinions about the matches from ftdna I posted on this thread.
Brian

**lgmayka** · 24 September 2007, 09:54 AM

Originally posted by brian87

--Why are there a number of Native Siberian,Mongolian and Kazakh exact matches? Does this mean I am closely related to them?

No. First, 12 markers is a very low level of resolution. Your common patrilineal ancestor may have lived 2000 years ago, or even more.

Second, testing of the Y chromosome only shows the patrilineal line: your father's father's father's father[...]. Those Siberians, Mongolians, and Kazakhs indeed have patrilineal lines stemming from the same ancient source (e.g., Indo-Europeans on horseback) as yours, but most of their other ancestors stem from other sources, often more easterly ones.

Originally posted by brian87

--What is the significance of the Ashkenazi matches or Ashkenazi Levite matches which seem prevalent in the one,two and three step mutations?
Do these point to some Jewish ancestry at some time ?

No, actually the opposite. The presence of R1a among Ashkenazim, particularly, Levites, is clearly an introgression from one or more European Gentile cultures. My own observations, especially of 67-marker haplotypes, suggest that Ashkenazi R1a may have a couple of different sources. Some of it is fairly close to western Slavic R1a, such as would be predicted by the Sorbian hypothesis; other Ashkenazi R1a appears to come from a more easterly source, which would accord with the Khazar hypothesis.

R1a men of Gentile origin should generally assume that Ashkenazi matches and near-matches are due to the R1a introgression into the Ashkenazi community, rather than to Jewish ancestry of their own. There are exceptions, of course--e.g., if the family history includes a mysterious adoption or surname change quickly followed by an emigration from Eastern Europe and silence concerning previous roots. As 67-marker results continue to arrive, the truth eventually wins out.

Originally posted by brian87

--The four step mutations contain C3 haplogroup matches mentioning Mongolia, China,Kazakh,Native Siberian. What exactly would C3 take my ancesters to in what time frame?

12-marker near-matches with another haplogroup are essentially by chance, or what we call "coincidental convergence." The common ancestor of R1a and C3 lived many tens of thousands of years ago.

Originally posted by brian87

--What else could I learn about the paternal side of my ancestry with these matches?

You will learn a lot more by looking at your 37-marker Yseach neighbor list.

I hope this post, and my earlier one, don't sound too curt or blunt. I simply mean to emphasize quite strongly that 12-marker matching is most useful when you only have 12 markers. Once you have 25, or 37, or 67 markers, your neighbors at those levels are much more indicative.

**haplogroupc** · 24 September 2007, 12:25 PM

brian87,

Have you taken the DNA Tribes test or have you considered it? I'm curious about what your results would be.

**Wena** · 24 September 2007, 12:41 PM

European looking Asians

Originally posted by brian87

I just wanted peoples opinion on this list of Y-DNA matches. My haplogroup is R1a I ordered the deep sub clade test but that has not come back.

My fathers side goes back through Poland . I just had some basic questions about the results.

--Why are there a number of Native Siberian,Mongolian and Kazakh exact matches? Does this mean I am closely related to them? In photographs these people look Asian and I suppose they are. My Father and I dont look very similar to them and those matches somewhat surprised me.

Haplogroup Descriptions
C3 The C3 lineage is believed to have originated in southeast or central Asia. This lineage then spread into northern Asia, and then into the Americas.

Hi. I also find it very interesting that some people so far east look so familiar to many Europeans and therefore search on more information about this topic, history and photos. It is very interesting, and it seems to me that these European looking Asian people are related to the same old nomadic groups that the Amazon women. If so they probably have their origin in the present areas of northern Kazakhstan and in Russian areas that are geographically near northern Kazakhstan:

"The warrior women known to ancient Greek authors as Amazons were long thought to be creatures of myth. Now 50 ancient burial mounds near the town of Pokrovka, Russia, near the Kazakhstan border, have yielded skeletons of women buried with weapons, suggesting the Greek tales may have had some basis in fact. Nomads known as the Sauromatians buried their dead here beginning ca. 600 B.C.; according to Herodotus the Sauromatians were descendants of the Amazons and the Scythians, who lived north of the Sea of Azov End of quote from the following website:

http://www.archaeology.org/9701/abst...armatians.html

"All nomadic tribes are perceived to have been ruthless raiders, faceless hordes following the commands of Genghis Khan - style leaders, terrorizing citizens of fortified cities, burning, pillaging and raping as they rode ever westward." End of quote from the following website:

http://people.uncw.edu/deagona/amazo...romations2.htm (article from Berkeley)

Whatever origin of these people they may have spread so far east under the Golden Horde Dynasty when they served Genghis Kahn. You can read about this dynasty here and scroll down to see the map of the dynasty that reached all the way to Baikal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horde

Take a look at these links and become surprised:

Taklimakan blond mummies in Turkmenistan
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.co...osser/eurasia/

Such mummies are also found in present Iran.

Woman from Kazakhstan
http://www.viewimages.com/Search.asp...partner=Google

Map to show how far Irktusk and Baikal is from Europe http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/cia99/russia_sm99.jpg

Village girls from Olkhon island in the Baikal Sea
http://www.baikaler.com/photos/olkhon/girls.jpg

Women in Irkutsk near Baikal
http://members.virtualtourist.com/m/p/m/2cfa3/

Poor street child in Irkutsk (blond with curls):
http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/data/13030/p9/ft700007p9/figures/ft700007p9_fig1.jpg

Brother and sister from Siberia:
http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/data/13...007p9_fig2.jpg

Man from Irktusk
http://www.iszf.irk.ru/~kit/public/Kit1.jpg

Another man from Irktusk
http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/pes/russ...alamarchuk.jpg

Irkutsk Ensemble
http://www.elen-music.com/images/art069_profile1.jpg

Woman leader from Irktusk
http://www.robertamsterdam.com/kazakova.jpg

Sales girl Irkutsk
http://www.stickman.com/fr/agfaimage...sSalesgirl.jpg

Baikal fisherman
http://www.blue-dunes.com/people/ilja-fisherman.jpg

Young man from lake Baikal
http://cryptome.org/cops01/pict95.jpg

Couple in Russia right north of Kazakhstan
http://www.blue-dunes.com/people/dmitri2.jpg

Girls from Baikal
http://www.fireworks.ru/moto/albums/...kal_girls3.htm

Village girl-Lake from Baikal Siberia
http://cheaptravel.net/cruises/image...ILCORRmini.jpg

**Wena** · 24 September 2007, 01:28 PM

Of course I do not know the haplogroups of the people in the photos, they may be R1a or R1b or something else. Their origin and history is interesting anyways.

**vraatyah** · 24 September 2007, 02:01 PM

Wena, your pics may mislead newbees

Those people are Russians and all their ancestors just 1-2 generations back were more likely to live in Pskov or Ryazan rather than where we see them now.

**Wena** · 24 September 2007, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by vraatyah

Wena, your pics may mislead newbees

Those people are Russians and all their ancestors just 1-2 generations back were more likely to live in Pskov or Ryazan rather than where we see them now.

Hi. Yes of course you might be right, but they are described as native people from Baikal and the little children are from the beginning of the 1900eds.

Poor Native street child in Irkutsk in 1919 (blond with curls):
http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/data/13...007p9_fig1.jpg

Brother and sister from Siberia:
http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/data/13...007p9_fig2.jpg

When the people in the photos migrated so far east I do not know.

The Amazons have spread as far east as Baikal and Mongolia even if their origin seems to be the present areas of northern Kazakhstan and neighbouring Russian areas. Here is an example from Mongolia: http://www.pbs.org/wnet/secrets/case_amazon/clues.html

There are finds that support that the Amazons were in and close to Mongolia.
Therefore it is known that some of these European looking Asians migrated eastwards early in history. See the articles in an earlier posting.

The Mongol Golden Horde Dynasty that connected northern Kazakhstan and neighbouring Russian areas with Baikal was a few hundred years back in history. This dynasty may be an explanation for some eastward migrations of people from the western part of Asia, see map of "The domains of the Golden Horde in 1389 before the Tokhtamysh-Timur war" in the following URL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Horde

Northern Kazakhstan and large parts of Russia is part of Asia right.

**vinnie** · 24 September 2007, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by lgmayka

No. First, 12 markers is a very low level of resolution. Your common patrilineal ancestor may have lived 2000 years ago, or even more.

Second, testing of the Y chromosome only shows the patrilineal line: your father's father's father's father[...]. Those Siberians, Mongolians, and Kazakhs indeed have patrilineal lines stemming from the same ancient source (e.g., Indo-Europeans on horseback) as yours, but most of their other ancestors stem from other sources, often more easterly ones.

No, actually the opposite. The presence of R1a among Ashkenazim, particularly, Levites, is clearly an introgression from one or more European Gentile cultures. My own observations, especially of 67-marker haplotypes, suggest that Ashkenazi R1a may have a couple of different sources. Some of it is fairly close to western Slavic R1a, such as would be predicted by the Sorbian hypothesis; other Ashkenazi R1a appears to come from a more easterly source, which would accord with the Khazar hypothesis.

R1a men of Gentile origin should generally assume that Ashkenazi matches and near-matches are due to the R1a introgression into the Ashkenazi community, rather than to Jewish ancestry of their own. There are exceptions, of course--e.g., if the family history includes a mysterious adoption or surname change quickly followed by an emigration from Eastern Europe and silence concerning previous roots. As 67-marker results continue to arrive, the truth eventually wins out.

12-marker near-matches with another haplogroup are essentially by chance, or what we call "coincidental convergence." The common ancestor of R1a and C3 lived many tens of thousands of years ago.

You will learn a lot more by looking at your 37-marker Yseach neighbor list.

I hope this post, and my earlier one, don't sound too curt or blunt. I simply mean to emphasize quite strongly that 12-marker matching is most useful when you only have 12 markers. Once you have 25, or 37, or 67 markers, your neighbors at those levels are much more indicative.

I would also suggest that Brian87 wait for the deep SNP results so he can exclude all the records not belonging to his subclade. As tempting as it is to try to figure out to whom you're more closely related without the subclade, you might be surprised at the results once they come; that's what happened to me with my J1 line. Now I'm waiting for my E3b1 results and although I can guess what they might be by just comparing haplotypes, it's just guessing until the results come in.

**Clochaire** · 24 September 2007, 06:36 PM

Chalakah

Doesn't Jewish tradition reckon one's membership in the community through the female line?

Maybe Brian does have Jewish ancestry from his father's side, but that it is not reflected in his Y STR. Maybe through his father's great-grandmother or somesuch?

Would there be any way of testing such a hypothesis?

Jack

**brian87** · 30 September 2007, 03:43 AM

Jack, That might be true

I suppose if my Aunt on that side tested her mtDNA might show that. I might ask her to but I'm still trying to get some kind of paper trail which has been more difficult than I thought. I'm still waiting for some microfilm I ordered and other stuff that might give more information.

They have to rerun the deep subclade test which was listed as haplogroup R1a initialy . I think it will be R1a or R1a1 but who knows what it will show . I hope it doesnt rule out all my matches.

Brian

**Wena** · 30 September 2007, 05:29 PM

Originally posted by vraatyah

Wena, your pics may mislead newbees

Those people are Russians and all their ancestors just 1-2 generations back were more likely to live in Pskov or Ryazan rather than where we see them now.

Vraatyah, I have found some interesting URL's to show you evidence for long lasting presence of these "European" looking Central Asians as far east as Mongolia:

Eurasian nomads herded their livestock is defined by kurgans (burial mounds), because tribes returned over many years to the same summer pastures where they buried their dead. This region, the great Eurasian steppe, begins in Moldova in the west and continues east across the Ukraine and southern Russia (north of the Black Sea), south and east of the Aral Sea, and through Kazakstan to include southern Siberia, western Mongolia, and western China. End of quote from: http://popgen.well.ox.ac.uk/eurasia/htdocs/davis.html

The old nomad tribes that occupied large areas of Central Asia were the Scythians, Sauromatians, and Sarmatians. I know that mtDNA N2b, X and U7 are frequently observed in these areas. It is know that R1a men descends from here, according to the Genographic Atlas.

There are archaeological finds of blonde and tall people in many places from the Volga Basin and Ukraine to Mongolia:

In Zanjan in northwestern Iran there are archaeological finds of about 1800 - 2200 years old Blonde Mummies:
http://www.iranian.ws/cgi-bin/iran_news/exec/view.cgi/5/12795

http://www.mummytombs.com/mummylocat...altmummies.htm

2000-year-old Woman warrior archaeological find in North Western Iranian tomb in Tabriz http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6661426/

2400-year-old graves in Pokrovka Far East in Russia that were used by Sarmatians and like the Sauromatians they were descendants of the Scytians and Amazon:
http://www.archaeology.org/9701/abst...armatians.html

The many archaeological finds in Central Asia must mean that the origin is from these areas. The old Greek Herodotus told that the Amazon warrior women lived north of the Caspian and Azov Sea where many old mounds also are found (that means northwestern areas of present day Kazakhstan and Russia)

Then there are mummies of tall blonde people found as Far East as the Gobi desert in Mongolia and in the Chinese Takla Maka desert.

The desert mummies are between 1200 and 4000 year old, these European looking people in Central Asian have been so far east for quite a while and are not new from the European parts of Russia. Their origin is not European, since there are no such very tall people found in Europe from prehistorical time. You can see some interesting videos about them. One guy is nearly 2 meters tall and these mummies are very well preserved. The oldest of them is called a beauty and is only 144 cm tall:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxHxCn67Juw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dw64i6nGuss (you might have to log in to Youtube to be able to see this video)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWG-zEH4Z84

**PDHOTLEN** · 30 September 2007, 06:20 PM

a Berlin museum item

When I was stationed in Berlin (1956-59), I remember seeing a piece of parchment with impreesive writing on it, labeled Tocharian B, and was from Sinkiang, China (if I remember correctly). Tocharian was an early Indo-European Lannguage.

**Wena** · 1 October 2007, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by PDHOTLEN

When I was stationed in Berlin (1956-59), I remember seeing a piece of parchment with impreesive writing on it, labeled Tocharian B, and was from Sinkiang, China (if I remember correctly). Tocharian was an early Indo-European Lannguage.

Wow, that is intersting. I thought the indo-european languages had their craddles in or near present India. Here is a photo of a man from Sinkiang in China, he look western.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/91/21...3a5bb6f2a6.jpg

He is a Uyghur. This is amazing.

Do you think that it was the R1a men that brought the indo-european languages to Europe?

It could not have been the R1b men that came with the indo-european languages here since they were so early in Europe, or may be some R1b men came later here with the R1a men.

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R1a Mongolia,Siberia,Kazakh,Asia, Ashkenazi

R1a Mongolia,Siberia,Kazakh,Asia, Ashkenazi

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