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  • IZZY
    replied
    Angela,

    Danke Shun, Gratzie, Todah.

    That does point to conciderable level of doubt that i am an R1a or closer to untested individuals who were closer to me than the Majority of the others anyway.

    The only way to find out would be to get SNP tested.

    Leave a comment:


  • AngelaC
    replied
    The answer to your p.p.s question is luckily quite easy -
    The ethnic origins matches are done by matching within the Family tree DNA client data base, whereas the Haplogroup matches are done with a completely different database (Dr Mike Hammers worldwide database), for which the actual SNP tests have been done, as well as the DYS tests.
    Those four people (two from Germany, two from Italy) won't be in Mike Hammers database.

    Leave a comment:


  • IZZY
    replied
    P.P.S. I was looking at my "ethnic origins" and comparing them to my "Haplotype" page, and lo and behold 4 of the exact 12 marker matches from Germany (2) and Italy (2) were not on the "ethnic origins" page w/ their factual Haplogroup. Is this cause' they are NOT R1a of because they were never tested for thier Haplogroup?

    If its because they are not R1a, I would seriously question if I was indeed R1a.

    Leave a comment:


  • IZZY
    replied
    P.S. I am 1 step mutation from syrian Arabs, 2 step from Saudi Arabian Arabs in the data base. I don't regard this as a co-incidence. They were actualy tested as R1a.

    We will see in 10-20 years if the haplogroup tree holds up to the advance of DNA/RNA science.

    I have my doubts.


    Remember there were three sons of Levi : Gershon , Qhath, and Merrari...they came before Arron the Cohen. Arron came from Qhath. The markers are based on mutations, it is quite possible that his mutations were somewhat diffrent than others in his clan.

    Leave a comment:


  • IZZY
    replied
    Yes my mom is J haplogroup. Thank Gawd

    I apreciate the help, it feels like I'm in an Ashkenaz levite Support Group! Nice to see you all root for me.

    I still have serious doubts about the Idea that the Ashkenaz levites are of mixed Slavic/Kahzar blood (from the fathers side) it is Easy to say that the Cohanim are one group- Thankfully.

    Levites Do present a diffrent picture. I accept that. What I cant accept is that "P" group is the father of both 10 percent of leviim in Sephardic, and Ashkenaz, as well as the supposed ancestor in R1a, and R1a1 Haplotypes. That makes about 70% of leviim "suspect".... that includes many on the Sephardic side as well.

    I have read studies that contradict the whole haplotype "tree" reccently. (the same one that says the "Palistinain" Arabs are simmilar to Jews and others in the M.E. - not news to me but intresting non the less).

    Shalom to all.

    Leave a comment:


  • whitkeen
    replied
    Thank you for the information. Very interesting.

    Leave a comment:


  • AngelaC
    replied
    I think I've got this all sorted now for everyone,....
    Over the last 2000 years, Jewishness is considered to be carried on the female line. A person is considered a Jewish if their mother is Jewish or by official conversion. This means that in the general jewish male population you can have non jewish Y-chromosomes and still be consided Jewish.
    However, the Cohanim, and the Levites are the exception - the current thinking is that for a male to be Cohanim or a Levite, his father has to be a Cohanim or a Levite. In theory no Cohanim or Levites should have European Y-chromosomes.
    Consequently, researchers were a bit stunned to find that 63% Ashkenazi Levites have haplotype R Y-chromosomes.
    http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/400971.pdf
    I've had a good read of the paper now, and the conclusion is that most Levites with a R1a1 haplotype Y-chromosome are descended from a single individual (most are from an identical DYS haplotype), and this common ancestor was from at least 990 years ago. However, the researchers still aren't 100% sure how a non Levite became a Levite and there are a couple of theories put forward.
    One of the theories is related to the the conversion of the Khazarian kingdom to Judaism in the 8th centuary. Apparently also, Talmudic sources I]might[/I] be interpreted to be more relaxed for inheritance of Levite status in some circumstances, ie. Levite status granted to the sons of a non Jewish father and a mother whose father is a Levite. The reserchers suggest that perhaps the more relaxed interpretation was used some time in history.

    Izzy, what all this ultimately means about your status as a Levite I don't know. However, I think that because some Talmudic interpretations give a more relaxed Levite status inheritance, you shouldn't worry too much (especially since it was likely a long time ago in history, and it might have been officially sanctioned back then).

    Angela.

    Leave a comment:


  • whitkeen
    replied
    I guess Levite-ness is carried in males, like Cohanim-ness. Still, being Jewish is considered to be carried on the female line. So, go figure. Sorry if I got it wrong. Also, maybe someone can tell me if having males in the family, but not father-son-son, can pass on the designation of being Levite (I know the Y-chromosome doesn't pass that way, but would someone whose mother's brother was Levite be considered a Levite, even if his father was not Levite, or maybe even not Jewish?) Just curious.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike Mallett
    replied
    Originally posted by AngelaCP
    Yes.
    I'm not sure how it happened - but 63% Ashkenazi Levites have haplotype R Y-chromosomes.
    Like the cohanim, all Levites should be of Jewish male descent, however I'm thinking that at some point in the past the rules were relaxed in the Ashkenazi populations, either that or genetic drift (as the authors of the 2003 paper suggest). The paper authors were wuite surprise with the results too, especially since in contrast only 12 % of Sephardi Levites are haplotype R.
    The paper is in the website Library "Multiple origins of Ashkenazi Levites".

    angela.
    I don't know about all this stuff you are referring to but I do know that the Levi line is carried on from father to son just like the Y chromosome is past from father to son. The woman doesn't have anything to do with it. Look at Jesus' genealogy, there was women of different origins ( Ruth, Rahab) but the man had to come from the tribe of Judah.


    Mike

    Leave a comment:


  • AngelaC
    replied
    Originally posted by Mike Mallett
    Are your sure about the statement you made that "You can still be a Levite and have a non-Jewish male ancestor." ????
    Yes.
    I'm not sure how it happened - but 63% Ashkenazi Levites have haplotype R Y-chromosomes.
    Like the cohanim, all Levites should be of Jewish male descent, however I'm thinking that at some point in the past the rules were relaxed in the Ashkenazi populations, either that or genetic drift (as the authors of the 2003 paper suggest). The paper authors were wuite surprise with the results too, especially since in contrast only 12 % of Sephardi Levites are haplotype R.
    The paper is in the website Library "Multiple origins of Ashkenazi Levites".

    angela.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mike Mallett
    replied
    Originally posted by whitkeen
    Izzy -- what matters is whether your MOTHER was Jewish -- mtDNA. (-: Actually, people are so mixed and so many moved around that I don't think you will find any pure anythings anywhere. Just bear in mind, for example, that there was a large Celtic settlement in Turkey about 1800 years ago. Could have mixed with your Jewish ancestors. You can still be a Levite and have a non-Jewish male ancestor.

    Are your sure about the statement you made that "You can still be a Levite and have a non-Jewish male ancestor." ????

    Leave a comment:


  • whitkeen
    replied
    Izzy -- what matters is whether your MOTHER was Jewish -- mtDNA. (-: Actually, people are so mixed and so many moved around that I don't think you will find any pure anythings anywhere. Just bear in mind, for example, that there was a large Celtic settlement in Turkey about 1800 years ago. Could have mixed with your Jewish ancestors. You can still be a Levite and have a non-Jewish male ancestor.

    Leave a comment:


  • IZZY
    replied
    Well hows that for family history!? Neat that you have it pretty well sorted out.

    I too ordered the "works" (just a little before the switch from 25 to 37) I did not order the extra SNP test, only because I did not know of its existance. (was not on list of tests offered)...I was honestly under the imression that the "works" was the most...alas if want to be Sure (and not guess) I will have to order the SNP test as well.

    So far the 12 markers that came in say I'm likely R1a.

    This makes a diffrence to me, cause being an Ashkenazi Levite there is a paper that would question my status based on gentics if I was R1a1 ( there is a diff. bet R1a and R1a1).

    So I would like to know.

    Thank you for sharing your experiance and history.

    IZZY

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Originally posted by IZZY
    R. Pavellas,

    A question for you. Did you order the "Dna Works"? You mention a SNP value, have you klicked on it to see if it really is another test? Or did the "Works" (vs. the cheaper tests) really include it all as they imlplicate in the Intro web site?
    IZZY: I ordered and received the maximum tests a person of the male persuasion can fruitfully order, to my knowledge. I got DNA Works + an additional $100 test to locate my haplotype accurately. My Mother's ancient maternal line mother comes from the Florence, Italy area, carrying a "K" haplotype. I have a match to an unknown or unrevealed person in Roumania who is Ashkenazi. I have a match to a known person with whom I have communicated who is an American Jew with a Polish name. I have other matches, widely dispersed (Including Germany, India & Sri Lanka), but overall my origins are 100% European. The Sri Lanka connection I assume is through the Dutch traders, "Burghers," who settled there hundreds of years ago.
    Last edited by rpavellas; 18 January 2004, 11:01 PM.

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  • Bill Hurst
    replied
    Originally posted by IZZY
    R. Pavellas,

    A question for you. Did you order the "Dna Works"? You mention a SNP value, have you klicked on it to see if it really is another test? Or did the "Works" (vs. the cheaper tests) really include it all as they imlplicate in the Intro web site?
    My reading of the DNA Works description is that it does NOT include the SNP test. I think Mr. Pavellas was referring to his suggested haplogroup. See http://www.familytreedna.com/description.html#dnaworks

    Bill H.

    Leave a comment:

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