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Phoenician Dna---J2

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    J Man
    Registered User

  • J Man
    replied
    I think that the ancient Hebrews were composed of a number of different haplogroups. Both types of J J1 and J2 were most likely the two most common haplogroups among them though. I also think that J2a M410 would have been more common than J2b amongst them.

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  • vinnie
    FTDNA Customer

  • vinnie
    replied
    An alternative explanation for the origin of the term "Hebrew" can be found at

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eber

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  • twang
    Registered User

  • twang
    replied
    I believe the Israelites came from Abraham. And some scholars believe that Ur, his hometown, was in Turkey. I also believe that many people over the centuries married into the Jewish nation.

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  • Deirwha
    Registered User

  • Deirwha
    replied
    Last post

    I could not figure out how to edit so clarification ... Haibiru meant "No People" in the sense of "countryless" or, more accurate to the times, "without an overlord." Overlords were called Fathers and their subordinates called sons. Not necessarily biological. But it meant you belonged to someone who could marshall troops to defend you and who would help make sure you were fed. The Haibiru workers were without that sort of bond, which why even outside of the concept of slavery as we understand it today, they went about the ancient Near East doing various jobs for various societies while remaining outside them.

    A second clarification- The Kazzites were not Semitic speakers. They conquered for a time Old Babylon, taking over as an invading warrior elite a Semitic speaking governing apparatus. That mini empire included pieces of Iraq and Iran and the territory between the Euphrates and the Nile.

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  • Deirwha
    Registered User

  • Deirwha
    replied
    I would love to see

    a funded research project that sampled DNA from graves dating back throughout that 10,000 years. That would be interesting.

    There has been much written as to the mosaic of haplogroups associated with people who self-identify as Jewish and much theorizing as to how that was. I will point out a little gnarl about which I know because I am a buff on ancient near east history.

    The archaeological record has not thus far been terribly supportive of the Identity Narrative prior to the 6th or 7th centuries BCE. That leaves out almost every legend around which the identity was formed. But one interesting place the archaeological record may support it is in the concept, Hebrew. While like everything else in Biblical Archaeology, the following idea is still under debate, there are many scholars who believe the term "Hebrew" came from the Egyptian word, "Haibiru," or the similar "Aibiru." No matter which because both meant the same thing- No People. The Egyptians applied the term to refugees, vagabonds, mercenaries and mostly migrant laborers. A lot like "Migrant Farm Workers."

    There are lists that have been found of these Haibiru and linguistic analysis applied to their names. Full a third of those who are listed were Kazzite ... people from the Steppes. Some were Aryan. Some were Semite. Hammurabi was a semite. The first recorded Napoleonic figure in history, Sargon, was a Semite.

    The Biblical narrative describes the people of the Exodus as, words to the effect, "once you were no people, now ..." Or, once you were Haibiru, now ..." So it seems to fit.

    So does the Kazzite influence. For instance, the ritual of the blessing stolen at deathbed from Esau was an important specific act recognized in Kazzite law by which a propertied Kazzite could disinherit the eldest and pass his property on to another. There are even Kazzite texts with similar stories. The Kazzite's ruled over the Levant for a period a little later than some would like for the Patriarchs, but a long, long time ago for us and well before the conventional dates for the Exodus (which is, of course, a matter of constant debate).

    So the lesson of all this? History teaches us the Levant, like the Rhineland in Roman times, was a place of constant ferment. People traveled, literally all over the globe, didn't they, before even wooden boats with keels.

    This continues. In 711 A.D. through 900 A.D. some of the greatest centers of learning in western europe were run by Talmudic scholars. The people of means from Portugal to the Rhine sent some of their sons to learn there. They learned and a fairly sizable number converted to Judaism. Some of their number may even have fought on the side of the Moors when a number of Jews sided with the Moors against the Christians in those early wars of expansion.

    Culture is not an allele, although some SNP's may be found in association with greater frequency among those who self identify with a culture.

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  • bob_chasm
    Registered User

  • bob_chasm
    replied
    45% J

    Originally posted by rainbow
    Earlier this week I saw something on wikipedia about ydna haplogroups.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...y_ethnic_groups

    According to that list, Ashkenazi Jews are mostly R1a, then R1b, then I. No J found at all. Isn't that odd?

    The table in that link shows that J is found in Croats, Albanians, Greeks, almost half of men from Oman, about 1/3 of men in Iran, etc.

    I honestly don't know the difference between ydna J1 and J2.
    The link you have provided suggests J haplogroup forms 45% of Ashkenazi population.
    bob_chasm
    Registered User
    Last edited by bob_chasm; 3 July 2008, 07:57 PM.

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  • twang
    Registered User

  • twang
    replied
    Originally posted by Gulf
    The real Israelites (descendants of Abraham) are J1,s only .

    Gulf
    That's conjecture as Abraham's DNA has never been tested.

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  • J Man
    Registered User

  • J Man
    replied
    Originally posted by Gulf
    It seems that you know littlie about history J Man.

    lol give me a break.

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  • josh w.
    FTDNA Customer

  • josh w.
    replied
    P.S. Correction---It is possible that some J had migrated to the Near East before the spread of agriculture. However it is also very likely that other lines were present before the neolithic period. Given the proximity of Egypt, African lines (subclades of E, for example) were probably in the area. In addition, an ice age refuge extended to the northern Levant, i.e. European lines may have preceded J.

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  • josh w.
    FTDNA Customer

  • josh w.
    replied
    "Semites" are a linguistic group not a biological dna based group. People from different dna backgrounds may speak the same language. For example, people in eastern Sweden and in Hawaii both speak Germanic languages but they are literally miles apart in dna background.

    The Near East (the Levant and northwest Arabia) has been populated for at least 20,000 to 30,000 years.(Actually around 90,000 years if one includes extinct modern human lines). From this perspective, haplogroup J including J1 and J2, is not native to the Near East. J arrived from eastern Iraq only 10,000 years ago with the spread of agriculture in the neolithic period. In other words, other haplogroups were present in the Near East before J was present. J2 spread in the north and some J1 spread to the south and eventually in all directions with the rise of Islam. However, modern patterns in Lebanon and Israel suggest that some J1 came directly from the east before the rise of Islam. In addition Jim H's work reveals a non- Semitic J1 pattern in the north.

    It would be a mistake to conclude that because J2 was present in the north it can't be Semitic. There were major Semitic nations in the north including the Akkadians and Assyrians. They probably included J1 and J2.
    josh w.
    FTDNA Customer
    Last edited by josh w.; 21 June 2008, 01:08 PM.

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  • Gulf
    Registered User

  • Gulf
    replied
    I hope it adds somthing
    Gulf
    Registered User
    Last edited by Gulf; 21 June 2008, 07:16 AM.

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  • Gulf
    Registered User

  • Gulf
    replied
    Arab Jewish

    I will talk about the Arab Jewish only because I don
    Gulf
    Registered User
    Last edited by Gulf; 21 June 2008, 07:23 AM. Reason: Adding more information

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  • josh w.
    FTDNA Customer

  • josh w.
    replied
    P.S. An independent review by Nebel (2007) came to the same conclusion as the NG project. Namely, that some Levantine J1 probably resulted from the spread of Islam from Arabia. (I think that there was a link to the study on Costa's J2 project reference section).
    Also I seem to recall a study of Sephardic Jews which reported more J2 than J1.
    josh w.
    FTDNA Customer
    Last edited by josh w.; 20 June 2008, 10:19 PM.

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  • josh w.
    FTDNA Customer

  • josh w.
    replied
    J is the most common haplogroup among Ashkenazi , around 40% of Jews. Some studies show equal division between J1 and J2, others show more J2 than J1 although Cohens are mainly J1. Some of the studies are in the FTDNA library. For example for the 40% figure see Behar (2004).
    Arabs are modally J1. However there are a number of Muslims in Lebanon, Iraq and Palestine who are J2. For example, according to Iraqi researcher Al-Zahery (2003), 25% of Iraqis, 29% of Lebanese and 15% of Syrians are J2. To the extent that these countries were "Arabized" there tends to be more J1 than J2. Most researchers such as the NG Lebanon project have concluded that some of the J1 in these areas was the result of the spread of Islam. I realize that this is a very controversial area. From my perspective, the wonder of dna patterns is that they reflect our commonality and thus undercut the issues that divide us.
    josh w.
    FTDNA Customer
    Last edited by josh w.; 20 June 2008, 09:44 PM.

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  • efgen
    Webinar Coordinator

  • efgen
    replied
    Originally posted by rainbow
    Okay Elise. I know I heard somewhere (on this forum probably) that some were J, but I was suprised that no J's were listed in that wikipedia link.
    The number of Jewish people in J is much more than "some". J (both J1 and J2) is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup among Jewish men. I don't know the breakdown of Ashkenazi vs Sephardic, but speaking from personal experience, I tested 4 male family members from different branches of my own Ashkenazi Jewish family and they happened to all be J.

    Elise

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