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Phoenician Dna---J2

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Gulf
    The real Israelites (descendants of Abraham) are J1,s only .

    Gulf
    That's conjecture as Abraham's DNA has never been tested.

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    • #47
      45% J

      Originally posted by rainbow
      Earlier this week I saw something on wikipedia about ydna haplogroups.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_...y_ethnic_groups

      According to that list, Ashkenazi Jews are mostly R1a, then R1b, then I. No J found at all. Isn't that odd?

      The table in that link shows that J is found in Croats, Albanians, Greeks, almost half of men from Oman, about 1/3 of men in Iran, etc.

      I honestly don't know the difference between ydna J1 and J2.
      The link you have provided suggests J haplogroup forms 45% of Ashkenazi population.
      Last edited by bob_chasm; 3 July 2008, 07:57 PM.

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      • #48
        I would love to see

        a funded research project that sampled DNA from graves dating back throughout that 10,000 years. That would be interesting.

        There has been much written as to the mosaic of haplogroups associated with people who self-identify as Jewish and much theorizing as to how that was. I will point out a little gnarl about which I know because I am a buff on ancient near east history.

        The archaeological record has not thus far been terribly supportive of the Identity Narrative prior to the 6th or 7th centuries BCE. That leaves out almost every legend around which the identity was formed. But one interesting place the archaeological record may support it is in the concept, Hebrew. While like everything else in Biblical Archaeology, the following idea is still under debate, there are many scholars who believe the term "Hebrew" came from the Egyptian word, "Haibiru," or the similar "Aibiru." No matter which because both meant the same thing- No People. The Egyptians applied the term to refugees, vagabonds, mercenaries and mostly migrant laborers. A lot like "Migrant Farm Workers."

        There are lists that have been found of these Haibiru and linguistic analysis applied to their names. Full a third of those who are listed were Kazzite ... people from the Steppes. Some were Aryan. Some were Semite. Hammurabi was a semite. The first recorded Napoleonic figure in history, Sargon, was a Semite.

        The Biblical narrative describes the people of the Exodus as, words to the effect, "once you were no people, now ..." Or, once you were Haibiru, now ..." So it seems to fit.

        So does the Kazzite influence. For instance, the ritual of the blessing stolen at deathbed from Esau was an important specific act recognized in Kazzite law by which a propertied Kazzite could disinherit the eldest and pass his property on to another. There are even Kazzite texts with similar stories. The Kazzite's ruled over the Levant for a period a little later than some would like for the Patriarchs, but a long, long time ago for us and well before the conventional dates for the Exodus (which is, of course, a matter of constant debate).

        So the lesson of all this? History teaches us the Levant, like the Rhineland in Roman times, was a place of constant ferment. People traveled, literally all over the globe, didn't they, before even wooden boats with keels.

        This continues. In 711 A.D. through 900 A.D. some of the greatest centers of learning in western europe were run by Talmudic scholars. The people of means from Portugal to the Rhine sent some of their sons to learn there. They learned and a fairly sizable number converted to Judaism. Some of their number may even have fought on the side of the Moors when a number of Jews sided with the Moors against the Christians in those early wars of expansion.

        Culture is not an allele, although some SNP's may be found in association with greater frequency among those who self identify with a culture.

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        • #49
          Last post

          I could not figure out how to edit so clarification ... Haibiru meant "No People" in the sense of "countryless" or, more accurate to the times, "without an overlord." Overlords were called Fathers and their subordinates called sons. Not necessarily biological. But it meant you belonged to someone who could marshall troops to defend you and who would help make sure you were fed. The Haibiru workers were without that sort of bond, which why even outside of the concept of slavery as we understand it today, they went about the ancient Near East doing various jobs for various societies while remaining outside them.

          A second clarification- The Kazzites were not Semitic speakers. They conquered for a time Old Babylon, taking over as an invading warrior elite a Semitic speaking governing apparatus. That mini empire included pieces of Iraq and Iran and the territory between the Euphrates and the Nile.

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          • #50
            I believe the Israelites came from Abraham. And some scholars believe that Ur, his hometown, was in Turkey. I also believe that many people over the centuries married into the Jewish nation.

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            • #51
              An alternative explanation for the origin of the term "Hebrew" can be found at

              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eber

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              • #52
                I think that the ancient Hebrews were composed of a number of different haplogroups. Both types of J J1 and J2 were most likely the two most common haplogroups among them though. I also think that J2a M410 would have been more common than J2b amongst them.

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