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Phoenician Dna---J2

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  • #16
    Originally posted by bob_chasm
    Perhaps, Wells is of the view that J2 Sicilians and Southern Italians are also descendants of Phoenicians. regards, bob.
    It's true that the Phoenicians had trading posts and then the Carthaginians had colonies in western Sicily for hundreds of years before the Roman Empire defeated and destroyed Carthage. However, eastern Sicily and southern Italy were firmly Greek for all that period. So it's debatable to what extent Sicilian and southern Italian yDNA would reflect Phoenician/Carthaginian influence. I think the answer is some, but not a lot.

    The problem with Wells' claim that Maltese yDNA is overwhelmingly Phoenician in origin is that the nearest population to that island is Sicilian and southern Italian. So he should at least consider what portion of Maltese yDNA is attibutable to Sicily/southern Italy. As I pointed out, only some of the gene pool of Sicily and probably little or none of southern Italy should be considered Phoenician in origin.

    J2 is a common haplogroup througout Mediterranean populations and entered southern Europe about 10,000 years ago, so why must any J2 in Malta be solely related to Phoenicians and Carthaginians? Wells needs to come up with some compelling evidence in haplotype comparisons or SNP tests to be convincing.

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    • #17
      Nobody seems to have mentioned languages so far. I know it's notoriously dangerous to make a one-to-one correspondence between language and DNA, but it's surely interesting that the indigenous Maltese language is Semitic, and fairly close to Hebrew. So where did that come from?

      Harry

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      • #18
        Originally posted by hdw
        Nobody seems to have mentioned languages so far. I know it's notoriously dangerous to make a one-to-one correspondence between language and DNA, but it's surely interesting that the indigenous Maltese language is Semitic, and fairly close to Hebrew. So where did that come from?

        Harry
        The Phonecians spoke a language system similar to Hebrew. The Wikkipedia entry on the Phonecian language says "Phoenician is a Semitic language of the Canaanite subgroup, closely related to Hebrew and Aramaic."

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        • #19
          Bob, Zallua said his own dna was of the same line as found in Iran and India and the most recent report did not mention Italy. Unlike Rib it has been difficult to tie subclades of J2 to specific geographical areas. Again it sure would help if they had something in print. In science press releases usually coincide with publications or at least convention presentations.

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          • #20
            Regarding the language, I think Maltese descends from North African Arabic, which can be expected given where Malta is:
            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_language

            cacio

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            • #21
              Originally posted by cacio
              Regarding the language, I think Maltese descends from North African Arabic, which can be expected given where Malta is:
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_language

              cacio
              That's interesting, because the Arabs only reached the Maghreb during their 7th century expansion out of the Middle East, so the Maltese must have spoken some other language before. On the mainland opposite, Berber would have been spoken, and maybe other languages too. I believe Malta has a lot of stone henges or something of the kind dating from the Neolithic period, and similar to what is found in the British Isles. Whether they were built by indigenous people or incomers, I don't know.

              Harry

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              • #22
                Originally posted by josh w.
                I get the impression that Dr. Zallua released a press report in Lebanon. Another website "LebaneseLobby" also quoted Dr. Zallua recently. The report stated that one third of Maltese show the Lebanese pattern. It was not clear if he meant J2 per se or a specific J2 pattern found in Lebanon.

                Due to the extreme political conflict I doubt if the NG project will touch the issue of similarity between Lebanese and Jewish dna patterns. However there is reason to suspect similarity not only because of the historical connection. In separate studies Nebel and Hammer found similarities between Jewish and Palestinian haplotypes. Where differences were found they were mainly in regard to J1 rather than J2, e.g. the J1 Galileean Modal Haplotype which may reflect the spread of Islam from Arabia (the J1 vs. J2 issue of "who lived here first" has caused alot of controversy for the NG project in Lebanon). Although anecdotal information is of very limited value, there is a connection in my own dna pattern. While over 90% of my 12 marker matches appear to be Ashkenazi, there are a few 11/12 and 12/12 Lebanese matches. (I wonder what the pattern would be if FTDNA had a more representative database.) This issue is yet another reason why it would be nice if the NG project actually published their data.
                Josh can I ask you about G and I1a . I know that I1a is very close to j1 or j2 and that it is just one mutation off. and that just could be to the cold genes. my father is also a G which is also very close to these. they together make up about 70 % of Sardinia genetics add some J2 and some R1b-- that pretty much makes up the island I think .. , this is also a place known for Phoenicians . so I am trying to understand all their relationships in the Mediterranean . do you have a history or something that might explain these DNA groups these ones that obviously b\seem to be sea people.. of some kind..
                so these that just that could be Semitic /or Phoenician/ or Mediterranean , because we both know people were not just one thing. especially Phoenicians. and all of the J could still be some of the Israelites/lost tribes known as Samaritan's which traveled with the Phoenicians too. this is all so interesting and to figure out who they were because they pheoncians were resposible for populating alot of the old world and maybe most of the new world. interesting people.

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                • #23
                  the European dna

                  if anyone finds out what that is . that would be great to know also .

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                  • #24
                    I have to say
                    I find it kinda odd that they are doing all of these studies on people who lived on the land ... these people in thousand of years never went anywhere.
                    and since there are other dna lines who are actually are known to be in a boat occasionally and are known to have gone to most parts of the world occasionally. that they just might be good canidates .... . well and since the words Finnish and Pheoncia are so very simular and well they just did that study on how some branch of the Finnish language has semitic roots...but mostly like I said shouldn't the Pheoncians actually be ones known to been in a BOAT and woudln't they have to have been known as very advanced sailors .. as in not land dwellers.. and mostly of them are only a few maybe just one genetic markers away from being jews.. hey but I am not scientist...

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                    • #25
                      Most of the research on migrations in the Mediterranian is contained in the FTDNA library. I am not aware of any research confined to Sardinia but there have been Sardinian samples in larger scaled research. You might also try the Italian and Sicilian projects. Members of these projects have participated on this and similar forums and are skeptical of the claims of the Phoenicia project.
                      The Phoenicia project director argues that it is basically J2 and not another subclade, not even J1 even though other subclades exist in present day Lebanon. I am doubtful of this view since there were many migrations in the Levant prior to the development of Phoenicia.
                      To answer your basic question, it is far too early to reach conclusions about the nature of the Phoenician presence in the western Mediterranian as far as subclades are concerned, i.e. haplogroup G cannot be ruled out.

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                      • #26
                        Just saw a mention of Sardinian research by Francalacci on 3200 year old mummies (reference not listed). Consistent with his previous work, the origins seemed to be mainly European. This has been the concern about the Phoenicia project--did the J2 in Malta come from Phoenicia or from Italy. He is one of the researchers who noted the high presence of Y dna subclade I1b2 fairly unique to Sardin ia but also present in southern Europe.

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                        • #27
                          gosh gosh I am not sure and I would personally vote for Q or R and here is why... anyone who does not believe in the bible will not like this but here goes anyway .

                          well from the bible which I consider the best history book ever. I am going to vote for Q first then R. the reason is this.
                          I believe the real/ original maybe not the highest percentage at any given time of Phoenicians were of Asian and of Japheth.
                          the Bible talks of the formation of a group of four brothers , who it calls the " sea people " these are from Japheth those are most likely to be at the end of that Y scale N, O P Q and or R , someplace in these guys. now to the original group we add a bunch of Shem-ites..... Moab/Lot's family and all Egyptians and Samaritans/ the lost tribes and such and then ad all kinds of people living in the and around anyplace the Phoenician's lived.
                          so my money is on Q first ( who are obviously one of the many "sea people" and had to have been pretty good at it. . as they got all the way too the new world some how and circumvented every continent. . but are they the ones we call Phoenicians is the question , since we do not know how Q got to Iceland and north west Europe as it may have been it may gotten there late by slavery ... but my next vote is R, because it is is the main group in Spain and in the Basque. and that sure could look like " Tarshish" to me. but I am talking the original original who started the whole boat thing in the first place , and that may not been the ones who ended up on the boats most towards the ends of what we know as the Phoenician empire., the populations of shem-itic diaspora may have gotten huge within their city nations is my guess.
                          so my vote is for Q first. if they did not get to Europe north west by slavery .
                          if they did get there by slavery then I vote for R as the originals .. then add lots of lots of Semitics I, J , F G and then add a few E's from Carthage and other north African and Mediterranean DNA . so if I was a betting person ,that is where I would put my money.
                          but until they figure out the slavery issues ... we will not answer the Q question for sure which side they came to the new world from . maybe it was both sides , then darn they were good..!!
                          purple flowers
                          Registered User
                          Last edited by purple flowers; 8 January 2008, 11:13 AM.

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                          • #28
                            Announcing the Malta DNA Project

                            Well, one way to help settle this thread is to get as many Maltese as you can find and get them to join the Malta DNA project on FTDNA: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/malta


                            Sahha,
                            Michael

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Lino
                              Well, one way to help settle this thread is to get as many Maltese as you can find and get them to join the Malta DNA project on FTDNA: http://www.familytreedna.com/public/malta


                              Sahha,
                              Michael
                              Hello Michael,

                              Good to hear that you have started a Maltese DNA project !

                              Being a person with 100% MED ancestry myself ( as far as I know - my records go back to 1500s and 1600s for most of my ancestral lines ) - the population genetics of this area interests me alot.

                              Have you made contact with Charles Said - Vassallo ?

                              Maltagenealogy

                              Regards,
                              Costa Tsirigakis

                              Greek DNA project

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                              • #30
                                I Believe the J2s in Lebanon are belonging to Romans, Ancient Greeks, Kurds, Georgians, Ancient Anatolians and Armenians all of them been their, not the Phoenicians, the Phoenicians are J1 only .

                                Gulf

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