Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Phoenician Dna---J2

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Phoenician Dna---J2

    A report on the National Geographic project on MSNBC confirms that it is likely that Phoenician dna was commonly J2. According the report, modern Lebanese of all religions show the J2 pattern. The same J2 pattern is also found in the area around ancient Carthage, Malta and parts of Spain. Indirectly, this finding also provides support for the the view that some Jewish J2 began in the area that became Canaan a part of which in turn became ancient Israel.

  • #2
    Originally posted by josh w.
    A report on the National Geographic project on MSNBC confirms that it is likely that Phoenician dna was commonly J2.
    I would say "speculates" is a better description than "confirms".

    This Rootsweb thread contains more detail, but the gist is that the sample from Malta that Wells seems to think represents Phoenican ancestry probably more likely reflects recent (modern) genetic input from Sicily and southern Italy.

    If press reports about Wells "findings" are accurate (and since he hasn't published them, there is nothing else to go on), then the National Geographic's conclusions are probably flawed.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by josh w.
      A report on the National Geographic project on MSNBC confirms that it is likely that Phoenician dna was commonly J2. According the report, modern Lebanese of all religions show the J2 pattern. The same J2 pattern is also found in the area around ancient Carthage, Malta and parts of Spain. Indirectly, this finding also provides support for the the view that some Jewish J2 began in the area that became Canaan a part of which in turn became ancient Israel.

      Many if not the majority of Phoenicians probably were J2. It makes sense to me. I don't think that just the Phoenicians are responsible for spreading J2 around the Mediterranean.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by josh w.
        A report on the National Geographic project on MSNBC confirms that it is likely that Phoenician dna was commonly J2. According the report, modern Lebanese of all religions show the J2 pattern. The same J2 pattern is also found in the area around ancient Carthage, Malta and parts of Spain. Indirectly, this finding also provides support for the the view that some Jewish J2 began in the area that became Canaan a part of which in turn became ancient Israel.
        As Vineviz points out, which is elaborated in the Rootsweb.com thread to which he linked, this report and Wells' public statements make it sound as if it's proven beyond any doubt that the yDNA of Malta is overwhelmingly a reflection of Phoenician involvement there about 2,500 years ago. Wells bases this on a very short haplotype (which is why I bolded Josh's "same J2 pattern" above) which may easily allow him to overstate his case. We all know about the hazards of inferring deep ancestry based on 6 magical markers among the first 12, as Oppenheimer has done with British Isles haplotypes.

        I agree with Vineviz that it's a big mistake for Wells to not even consider that Sicily and southern Italy (full of J2) have something to do with Malta's yDNA. (And that's not because I'm co-administrator of the Sicily Project.) Also, Wells has not published any of this in a scientific journal, which would allow for his scientific colleagues to point out any flaws in his assumptions or methods.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by MMaddi
          . We all know about the hazards of inferring deep ancestry based on 6 magical markers among the first 12, as Oppenheimer has done with British Isles haplotypes.
          Talking of Oppenheimer, one of the weirdest claims in his book (p.239) is that "J2 is represented in Scotland with a highest frequency of 7.3% in the old Pictish town of Pitlochry". Well, in the first place, the Picts didn't live in towns, none of which existed in their day, tho' many current Scottish place-names are of Pictish derivation; and secondly, the permanent population of Pitlochry, not counting the summer tourist influx, is about 2,500. And it's a typical Scottish Highland tourist-trap coach-party destination full of woollen and tartan shops and hotels and bed-and-breakfast establishments, many of them run by incomers to the town from elsewhere in Scotland or from England. For years I used to attend an annual conference of Scottish medieval historians held in a hotel in Pitlochry just after the New Year, as the rooms were cheap because Highland hoteliers are desperate for any kind of business at that dead time of year. The manager of the hotel was Bavarian, and the staff were from all over. I just can't see Pitlochry - which only achieved its present tiny population after the arrival of the railway in 1863 - as an enclave of proto-Phoenician J2's who have lived there for the last God knows how many thousand years.

          Harry

          Comment


          • #6
            The report was not from Wells but from the project's Lebanese director. The report was still quite general but I got the impression that they had results at the J2 subclade level. Specifically, the director reported that his own line matched lines in Iran and India. If my impression is correct, they may have had Maltese and Carthaginian matches at the subclade level. I mentioned the report because this is the first time I have seen J2 identified explicitly in regard to the project. The report also mentioned finding a "European" haplogroup in Lebanon.
            The RootsWeb discussion mentioned haplotypes. It would certainly be an overstatement if they claimed J2 but did not do SNP testing. The report did not mention the kind of testing they used.
            Last edited by josh w.; 10 September 2007, 08:55 PM.

            Comment


            • #7
              A report on the National Geographic project on MSNBC confirms
              Do you have source link of this report?

              Comment


              • #8
                No. By posting this thread I was hoping that someone would have more information.This has been the major complaint about the National Geographic project. They provide information to public media in bits and pieces with little supporting evidence. The concern is that the data will never be presented in a major scientific journal. For example, as indicated above, it was not clear if they reached their conclusion about J2 from STRs or SNPs.
                Last edited by josh w.; 11 September 2007, 02:53 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  I get the impression that Dr. Zallua released a press report in Lebanon. Another website "LebaneseLobby" also quoted Dr. Zallua recently. The report stated that one third of Maltese show the Lebanese pattern. It was not clear if he meant J2 per se or a specific J2 pattern found in Lebanon.

                  Due to the extreme political conflict I doubt if the NG project will touch the issue of similarity between Lebanese and Jewish dna patterns. However there is reason to suspect similarity not only because of the historical connection. In separate studies Nebel and Hammer found similarities between Jewish and Palestinian haplotypes. Where differences were found they were mainly in regard to J1 rather than J2, e.g. the J1 Galileean Modal Haplotype which may reflect the spread of Islam from Arabia (the J1 vs. J2 issue of "who lived here first" has caused alot of controversy for the NG project in Lebanon). Although anecdotal information is of very limited value, there is a connection in my own dna pattern. While over 90% of my 12 marker matches appear to be Ashkenazi, there are a few 11/12 and 12/12 Lebanese matches. (I wonder what the pattern would be if FTDNA had a more representative database.) This issue is yet another reason why it would be nice if the NG project actually published their data.
                  Last edited by josh w.; 14 September 2007, 02:11 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    P.S. According to both news accounts Dr Zallua claims that J2 originated in the Levant about 12,000 years ago. Others have placed J2 further east either in Turkey or near the Zagros mountains. (there is always the possibility that the reports were inaccurate and that he was referring to a subclade of J2).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by josh w.
                      P.S. According to both news accounts Dr Zallua claims that J2 originated in the Levant about 12,000 years ago. Others have placed J2 further east either in Turkey or near the Zagros mountains. (there is always the possibility that the reports were inaccurate and that he was referring to a subclade of J2).

                      Hi Josh:

                      Here is the latest article from MSNBC on the subject:

                      http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20682315/

                      no detailed info, but they've tested 1000 levantines and hint at connections with Iberia, Tunisia and Malta.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by ddugas
                        Hi Josh:

                        Here is the latest article from MSNBC on the subject:

                        http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20682315/

                        no detailed info, but they've tested 1000 levantines and hint at connections with Iberia, Tunisia and Malta.
                        I read this article. Perhaps it's due to the typical media attempt to "dumb down" the specifics of something scientific for a mainstream readership, but it's very unclear what "marker" Zalloua is referring to that allows him to so unambigously connect the yDNA of Lebanese with Malta, Tunisia and Spain. Here's a crucial quote from the article:

                        "The genetic marker which identifies descendants of the ancient Levantines is found among members of all of Lebanon's religious communities, he said. 'It's a story that can actually unite Lebanon much more than anything else.'

                        "The marker, known as the J2 haplogroup, was found in an unusually high proportion among Lebanese, Palestinians and Syrians tested by Zalloua during more than five years of research. He tested 1,000 people in the region.

                        " 'The further south you go, the less likely you are to see this marker. The further north and the further inland you go, the less you see of this marker. It is very Levantine,' he said.

                        "The same marker was found in unusually high proportions on other parts of the Mediterranean coast where the Phoenicians are known to have established colonies, such as Carthage in today's Tunisia.

                        " 'It's abundantly present in the Iberian peninsula,' Zalloua added. In Malta, the ancient DNA type was found in an extremely high 30 percent of samples, he said.

                        " 'We are seeing a pattern of expansion out of the Levant area along the maritime routes the Phoenicians used,' he said."

                        So what is the J2 "marker" that he is basing his claims on??? Is he talking about a specific subclade of J2 defined by a SNP? A cluster defined by specific off-modal STR values on a few markers? If he doesn't have one of those two indications as his "marker," I don't know what he means. And also, as Vineviz and I posted in this thread, why doesn't he include haplotypes from Sicily and southern Italy in his analysis? (Maybe it was another, newer thread than this one, which first reported on Spencer Wells' and Zalloua's linking of Maltese yDNA with Phoenicians.) Western Sicily had both Phonenician trading posts and later Carthaginian colonies for several hundred years before the Roman Empire took over. But both Sicily and southern Italy have lots of J2 as well from thousands of years earlier, from Neolithic migrations.

                        We really need more information from Wells and Zalloua about what their findings are, including haplotypes and the mysterious J2 "marker," since the popular media does not report that. Wells and Zalloua should submit their findings to a scientific journal which will establish how well-proven their claims are.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          David, thanks--that was the article I mentioned.

                          Mike, I share your frustration. To complicate matters, I have seen a reference to study by Mansour of HLA autosomal genes which found that Lebanese were similar to Mediterranean Europeans. I think that publication will be slow in coming given the political complexity in Lebanon. In fact the NG project tested "Phoenician" remains in Turkey since they were not permitted to do so in Beruit. An anecdotal report on the forum indicated that the remains were J2. However by focusing on J2 rather than J1, Zallua is concetrating on a subclade that is relatively more common among Lebanese Christians than Lebanese Muslims. Zallua is walking a very fine line if he is attempting to demonstrate that Phoenician dna is different from both Arab and European dna while at the same time trying to avoid the awkward fact that it might be similar to some Jewish dna.
                          Last edited by josh w.; 15 September 2007, 03:57 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            It makes sense to me. The Phoenicians were the most prolific.

                            And if it's similar to some Jewish dna that is because Abraham fathered both. Two different wives, so of course the Y-Dna would be the same. Yes, I believe this story from the bible. If you wanna find the difference, then find the different mtdna.
                            Last edited by rainbow; 15 September 2007, 04:03 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by MMaddi
                              As Vineviz points out, which is elaborated in the Rootsweb.com thread to which he linked, this report and Wells' public statements make it sound as if it's proven beyond any doubt that the yDNA of Malta is overwhelmingly a reflection of Phoenician involvement there about 2,500 years ago. Wells bases this on a very short haplotype (which is why I bolded Josh's "same J2 pattern" above) which may easily allow him to overstate his case. We all know about the hazards of inferring deep ancestry based on 6 magical markers among the first 12, as Oppenheimer has done with British Isles haplotypes.

                              I agree with Vineviz that it's a big mistake for Wells to not even consider that Sicily and southern Italy (full of J2) have something to do with Malta's yDNA. (And that's not because I'm co-administrator of the Sicily Project.) Also, Wells has not published any of this in a scientific journal, which would allow for his scientific colleagues to point out any flaws in his assumptions or methods.
                              Perhaps, Wells is of the view that J2 Sicilians and Southern Italians are also descendants of Phoenicians. regards, bob.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X