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  • #46
    Hi DKF,
    I noticed on your signature that your family have either NA or EA scores and you have NA ancestry.
    AbDNA have told me that EA is only EA and yet in their manual it actually states that a person could get either EA/NA or both to mean NA ancestry...I wonder why they would contradict themselves?
    I personally think after reading their manual Mum's score is actually NA (her confidence range for NA was 0-10%) but still....
    I agree that more BGA tests will emerge, it's just having the patience to hold back when you're trying to find out about part of your family you don't know anything about!

    Comment


    • #47
      Originally posted by burto
      Hi DKF,
      I noticed on your signature that your family have either NA or EA scores and you have NA ancestry.
      AbDNA have told me that EA is only EA and yet in their manual it actually states that a person could get either EA/NA or both to mean NA ancestry...I wonder why they would contradict themselves?
      I personally think after reading their manual Mum's score is actually NA (her confidence range for NA was 0-10%) but still....
      I agree that more BGA tests will emerge, it's just having the patience to hold back when you're trying to find out about part of your family you don't know anything about!
      Burto:

      Frankly ABDNA have waffled on the NA = EA "issue". I have studied this test and a hundred or so results in relation to known genealogies and have concluded that if one gets an EA score and has no known connection to Japan etc. then this might as well be rolled into the NA score and add the two together for a better estimate. Some card holding registered NA individuals have EA rather than NA and the inescapable conclusion is that the test cannot adequately differentiate between the two (much to the embarrasment of the test originators) in real (not simulated) applications.

      To sum, very often EA = NA. I once thought about doing a study to determine which tribal groups were more likely to have EA results, but in my own family (testing 5 distant cousins) it is a confusing mix, and we are all Mohawk. I instead went on to (obsessively) explore other interesting avenues such as my Y-DNA.

      DKF.

      Comment


      • #48
        Hi DKF,
        Thank you for that. After reading their manual and comparing EA scores with European ancestry who may obtain an EA through ancient means, based on what little knowledge we have of our American side of the family I don't see how the EA can be anything other than NA personally. They state that Western Europeans do not yield EA scores so that's 50% of Mum's known ancestry and if they do it's a small fraction. If she had any Russian, Eastern European or PA Dutch ancestry, it would only be 25% so her EA score in theory should be lower than what she got according to their manuals data, but it's not. Given that she also gets an NA match 0-10% x2 less likely just makes me think it is accurate to a point, just not enough to determine 2 different racial groups.
        Makes me wonder whether it's worth me doing the test or holding out until something else comes out.

        Comment


        • #49
          Autosomal

          Originally posted by DKF
          Jodi, you have the rare blessing of having a NA mtDNA haplogroup. Unless your ancestors came from Central or Eastern Asia recently, the most likely interpretation is that your direct maternal line is NA. You have already found the "gold ring".

          Ascertaining percentage is problematic with the presently available autosomal tests. At one time I had plans to generate a better mousetrap using autosomal STR and other blended approaches rather than single SNPs as used with the two tests presently on the market. That is still in the works but I am not holding my breath as to when it will see the light of day (if ever). But for the present the reality is that with the false negatives and false positives how can anyone be able to interpret whatever results they are sent using the tools available today?

          Take heart, there is money, a lot of it, to be made in developing a robust BGA test and surely it is only a matter of time before another appears on the horizon. Of course we will all rush to take it because it is new, and it will only be over time that the consumer will be able to assess its merits.

          DKF.
          DKF,

          My direct maternal ancestor came from the Rio Grande. We know with out a doubt she was NA. There are many more in our family not just my direct maternal line but on mom's side. We have many people in our family from Indian Territory so to speak Western NC. They were in Catawba, Saponi, and Cherokee territory. We have no paper on some ancestors and also dont match to surnames in our Y tests. A lot of my family recieved their mother's surname instead of their father's which is the NA way of baby follows mother's clan instead of father. For me by locating direct male decendants and having them Y test can figure out who the males father's might have been since they seem to have their mother's surname. We have written record and Verbal of some of the father's names but DNA would prove or disprove paternity. Some of our family was denied on applications for tribal enrollment not because they weren't NA but because they werent in IT ( Indian Territory ) at the time they applied. Some of Dad's side of the family started off on The Trail of Tears but ditched and were not entitled to tribal enrollment again for not living in IT. I hope one day the can come up with a test that could sort all this out. Being that there are bits and pieces of evidence that there is a lot of NA in my family I did wonder how I would turn up on the ABDNA test but have decided to wait. I would rather spend my money right now on full MT-DNA as I was told they have been doing a lot of study on Haplogroup B. By doing a full test I may one day be able to figure out my ancestors tribe from the full test. My ancestor was shunned from her family because her 1st child and his father were white. She then married my 2nd ggrandfather who was Indian but it was too late. Her family still wouldn't accept her after having a white baby.

          Jodi
          Last edited by Yaffa; 19 October 2007, 01:21 PM.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by DKF
            Rainbow, this is where I think a study of the history of the area where your "unknown" ancestors came from would be essential. Mine came from an area close to the Six Nations Reserve, which was once actually a part of that Reserve in the 1800s. Pretty good clue. If there was an aboriginal tribal group who resided in the vicinity of your ancestors, your confidence in the ABDNA testing would quite sensibly rise. If there was never any tribal group in the area(s) since the 1600s then any confidence in the validity of the 17% result would diminish.

            Clearly your finding has a very tightly wound set of confidence bands around the red dot (meaning that the position of the red dot is very likely correct). It does not mean that you have 17% NA heritage, just that on this test by the definitions and algorithm used this is your score. As we know, you could be Pakistani or Greek with a profile of this nature.

            Bottom line, in my opinion, it is knowing the history of the region from which your unknown ancestors were living that is essential to taking a good stab at interpreting the results.

            DKF.
            My known ancestry is 3/4 British and Dutch, and 1/4 Czechoslovakian. My mother's side is from the British Isles, with some Swiss. Her test was zero NA.
            My father is half Czech on his father's side and Dutch/English on his mother's side. The 17% I have means he would be about 34%.
            According to my paternal grandmother, her side is Dutch and English with some French, German, and Scottish. I have her paper geneaolgy but it only has the direct paternal line from her father thru many generations back to an English Channel crossing from England to Holland in the late 1500's. That side, the Waldron side, came here (New Netherlands) in 1650. I know some of the Bloodgood (Anglicized Dutch name. family of one of the wives in my tree) that goes further back.
            It is ABDNA's word against this history given to me by my paternal grandmother. She never told me there was Native American. Believe it or not I have asked her if there was, several times, but she never answered that question. It's a coin toss on who I would believe.
            I have found out about Carlisle School students, who were from various tribes all over the US, settling in New Jersey, as well as Sioux from the Wild West Show in New Jersey. (I don't match Sioux). It's possible that I'm descended from generations of intermarriage with local Delaware and/or Mohican and /or any other tribe(s) of the area, but it's also possible that I'm descended from a Carlisle student.
            Last edited by rainbow; 19 October 2007, 04:08 PM.

            Comment


            • #51
              ?

              Originally posted by rainbow
              My known ancestry is 3/4 British and Dutch, and 1/4 Czechoslovakian. My mother's side is from the British Isles, with some Swiss. Her test was zero NA.
              My father is half Czech on his father's side and Dutch/English on his mother's side. The 17% I have means he would be about 34%.
              According to my paternal grandmother, her side is Dutch and English with some French, German, and Scottish. I have her paper geneaolgy but it only has the direct paternal line from her father thru many generations back to an English Channel crossing from England to Holland in the late 1500's. That side, the Waldron side, came here (New Netherlands) in 1650. I know some of the Bloodgood (Anglicized Dutch name. family of one of the wives in my tree) that goes further back.
              It is ABDNA's word against this history given to me by my paternal grandmother. She never told me there was Native American. Believe it or not I have asked her if there was, several times, but she never answered that question. It's a coin toss on who I would believe.
              I have found out about Carlisle School students, who were from various tribes all over the US, settling in New Jersey, as well as Sioux from the Wild West Show in New Jersey. (I don't match Sioux). It's possible that I'm descended from generations of intermarriage with local Delaware and/or Mohican and /or any other tribe(s) of the area, but it's also possible that I'm descended from a Carlisle student.
              Rainbow,

              There is always that chance that your grandmother is hiding the truth. Some people to this day do not want to acknowledge any NA or other heritage that would be considered other than Anglo European. Would she be willing to take a DNA test for you?

              Jodi

              Comment


              • #52
                Potowomecke Tribe...

                These books contain information about the Powatan Nation, there is some information about the Potowomecke Tribe also my ancestor Japasaw Weroance of Passapatanzy. (also known as I-Oppasus, Jabasaw, Japazues, Ipazeus, Jopassus) mentioned in the following books. Also my ancestors names are mentioned in historical documents of Colonial Virginia. I have studied my people and their history. Also I know the tribal historian William "Bill" Deyo. Sadly his father passed away today shortly after midnight.

                1. Pocahontas People: The Powhatan Indians of Virginia Through Four Centuries. By Helen C. Roundtree.

                2. Powhatan Foreign Relations: 1500-1722. Edited by Helen C. Roundtree.

                3. Before and After Jamestown: Virginias Powhatans and Their Predecessors. Helen C. Roundtree and E Randolph Turner 111.

                4. Eastern Shore Indians of Virginia and Maryland. Helen C. Roundtree and Thomas E. Davison.

                5. Pocahontas Powhatan Opechancanough. Three Indian Lives Changed by Jamestown. Helen C. Roundtree

                6. The Powhatan Indians of Virginia. Their Traditionsal Culture. By Helen C. Roundtree.

                7. The True Story of Pocahontas. The Other Side Of the Story. Dr. Linwood "Little Bear" Custalow and Angela L. Daniel "Silver Star"

                8. Pocahontas Medicine Women Spy Interpreneur Dipolmat. Paula Gunn Allen.

                9. Were Still Here. Comtemporary Virginia Indians Tell Their Story. Sandra F. Waugaman and Danielle Moretti-Langholtz, Ph.D.

                10. Powhatans Lords of Life and Death. Command and Concent in Seventeeth Century Virginia. Margaret Holmes Williamson.

                11. Pocohontas and the Powhatan Dilema. Camillia Townsend.

                12. Fist People. The Early Indians of Virginia. Keith Egloff & Deborah Woodward.

                13. Powhatan's World And Colonial Virginia. A Conflict of Cultures. Frederic W. Gleach.

                Maria

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by rainbow
                  My known ancestry is 3/4 British and Dutch, and 1/4 Czechoslovakian. My mother's side is from the British Isles, with some Swiss. Her test was zero NA.
                  My father is half Czech on his father's side and Dutch/English on his mother's side. The 17% I have means he would be about 34%.
                  According to my paternal grandmother, her side is Dutch and English with some French, German, and Scottish. I have her paper geneaolgy but it only has the direct paternal line from her father thru many generations back to an English Channel crossing from England to Holland in the late 1500's. That side, the Waldron side, came here (New Netherlands) in 1650. I know some of the Bloodgood (Anglicized Dutch name. family of one of the wives in my tree) that goes further back.
                  It is ABDNA's word against this history given to me by my paternal grandmother. She never told me there was Native American. Believe it or not I have asked her if there was, several times, but she never answered that question. It's a coin toss on who I would believe.
                  I have found out about Carlisle School students, who were from various tribes all over the US, settling in New Jersey, as well as Sioux from the Wild West Show in New Jersey. (I don't match Sioux). It's possible that I'm descended from generations of intermarriage with local Delaware and/or Mohican and /or any other tribe(s) of the area, but it's also possible that I'm descended from a Carlisle student.
                  Rainbow, with all due respect you are making assumptions that I as a scientist cannot accept. This is obviously an important matter to you (judging by the number of posts), and so I will say no more. Suffice it to say that the test is no longer discussed on the Rootsweb DNA-Genealogy List. The reason is that it does not meet accepted criteria for a reliable and valid instrument that can adequately reflect a persons true biogeographical minority ancestry. As I have said before, people will believe exactly what they want to believe and will often accept results that please them and reject those that are not consistent with their hopes or expections. At best the test must be interpreted in light of a known genealogy. It simply cannot be used to reveal hidden minority ancestry. I very much wish it could, and am hopeful that in the next year or two there will be something available that can give you a truer picture. However, at the moment it is simply not appropriate to use a blunt scalpel to perform precise neurosurgery.

                  DKF.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Have a ?

                    Originally posted by DKF
                    Rainbow, with all due respect you are making assumptions that I as a scientist cannot accept. This is obviously an important matter to you (judging by the number of posts), and so I will say no more. Suffice it to say that the test is no longer discussed on the Rootsweb DNA-Genealogy List. The reason is that it does not meet accepted criteria for a reliable and valid instrument that can adequately reflect a persons true biogeographical minority ancestry. As I have said before, people will believe exactly what they want to believe and will often accept results that please them and reject those that are not consistent with their hopes or expections. At best the test must be interpreted in light of a known genealogy. It simply cannot be used to reveal hidden minority ancestry. I very much wish it could, and am hopeful that in the next year or two there will be something available that can give you a truer picture. However, at the moment it is simply not appropriate to use a blunt scalpel to perform precise neurosurgery.

                    DKF.
                    DKF,

                    I have a question. Your ABDNA score states 3-10% NA and you can trace your family to the Mohawk Tribe. Maria W has an ABDNA score of 10% NA and can trace her family back to the Potowomek Tribe. It seems both you and Maria are able to connect your ABDNA scores to paper. Rainbow's ABDNA is 17% which is higher than yours or Maria's.

                    I know of 2 people in this forum who are MT-DNA Haplogroup C and their ABDNA scores are even higher than Rainbow's. So we now have 2 people confirmed NA through MT-DNA and match to the ABDNA test. Also you and Maria can match your ABDNA NA scores to paper.

                    I would like to understand why you feel Rainbow's test score is so inaccurate just because she has no paper or stories to prove her results.

                    Jodi
                    Last edited by Yaffa; 20 October 2007, 05:40 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Yaffa
                      DKF,

                      I have a question. Your ABDNA score states 3-10% NA and you can trace your family to the Mohawk Tribe. Maria W has an ABDNA score of 10% NA and can trace her family back to the Potowomek Tribe. It seems both you and Maria are able to connect your ABDNA scores to paper. Rainbow's ABDNA is 17% which is higher than yours or Maria's.

                      I know of 2 people in this forum who are MT-DNA Haplogroup C and their ABDNA scores are even higher than Rainbow's. So we now have 2 people confirmed NA through MT-DNA and match to the ABDNA test. Also you and Maria can match your ABDNA NA scores to paper.

                      I would like to understand why you feel Rainbow's test score is so inaccurate just because she has no paper or stories to prove her results.

                      Jodi
                      Jodi:

                      The ABDNA test has more holes than Swiss cheeze. It is highly liable to produce false positives and false negatives so one never really knows what to make of a score unless there is a good paper trail to match it to. People expect too much of this test. As I said before, perhaps on another thread, an article published in "Science" on the 17th of this month took particular aim at this test and how it is liable to distort or change people's self - identification, which might be a problem in and of itself, but more problematic is that the test gives spurious results such that Greek, Middle Eastern and Pakistani individuals frequently obtain NA scores of 10 to 35% (those figures are not mentioned in the article, but admittedly come from my memory of seeing a lot of results over the years).

                      Oral family traditons, or no tradition at all but only numbers from a test that is notoriously quirky when it comes to minority ancestry simply can't cut it. I wrote a journal article then a book on tracing First Nations ancestry in Ontario Canada. Over the years people have written to me about their oral traditions or their beliefs based on surname (e.g., Brant) or something of that sort. I investigated some of these to try and offer assistance (I had time then). Alas, I was never able to verify any of them, and about one third I was able to show are entirely wrong. This is reported in my book. One of those with the strongest oral tradition actually determined that there was some substance to what they were told - but their ancestor had been a captive of a Native American tribe, but no other link.

                      Alas people by in large do not want to find that cherished traditions are hollow and will tenaciously hold on to them despite lack of evidence. The ABDNA test is not going to offer anything more than a hint that it might be worth following up leads to see if the numbers have any validity. But they have no validity until the evidence is to hand since their meaning is unclear (perhaps there is someone of Greek ancestry in the family tree - an NA score of 10% for example might support that suspicion).

                      I understand that people may prefer that scientists not weigh in to these discussions, we are by nature a rather dour lot who bring a sober note of caution. People are perfectly free to spend endless hours discussing the theories of Barry Fell or Erich von Daniken but when the cold light of reason is shon on these subjects they stumble, fall and don't get up again - but are likely to be ressurected later by a new generation who was not involved in the original debunking.

                      A regular on the Rootsweb List obtained a score of 25% East Asian. His ancestry is strictly German from Pennsylvania. He speculated about possible Hun influence (although they were from Central Asia), and set up a project to test other's who have a similar ancestry, but his result remains an anomaly. There are a very large number of people who obtain questionable (read, false) results that have sent people scurrying to find non - existant ancestors. Anything is possible, but what is most probable. Well, the long and short of it is that we desperately need a better mousetrap but unless we had mega reference databases and used 1000 ancestrally informative markers we will have just another lame duck test useful only to confirm majority ancestry - what one knows anyway unless there is an adoption. Even then this "super test" is probably not going to be able to pick up ancestry derived from NA ancestors who lived in the late 1700s let alone the 1600s. What I have done, testing 5 members of my extended family, is the only way at present to increase the confidence in one's results - plus having some sort of genealogical trail.

                      Scientists end up being royal wet blankets. However, I think it is important to clarify things such as the belief that if a child obtains a score of 10% on the ABDNA test that the parent who is suspected of having NA ancestry will have a score of 20%. In truth they are as likely to have 0%. Before interpreting this test it is imperative to have an understanding of basic principles of genetics such as crossover and linkage disequilibrium, and an awareness of the "performance characteristics" of the test. With the Y and mtDNA tests it helps, but is not necessary, to have genetics 101 under one's belt. With the ABDNA test it is mandatory or one will be prone to being led far astray. Anyway, I fear that words of caution will often be dismissed because a triangle and red dot are vivid visual images and a number can take on a life of its own because we have learned to rely on them to give us information. I cannot emphasize enought that the DNA Tribes and ABDNA tests each have serious if not fatal flaws and that people are as likely to be led down the garden path as toward enlightenment.

                      If anyone is inclined to dismiss what I am saying they can post their results to the Rootsweb Genealogy-DNA List - but by in large people there are so jaded (due to endless and fruitless discussions over the years) that I am not sure anyone will reply, except perhaps to refer the poster to one of the many threads on the topic. Anyone inclined to explore the matter further may wish to visit the search feature of the Archives of the List and key in "DNA Print". If anyone is interested I could locate the URL of the log established by Charles Kerchner to allow people to input their results in light of known genelaogy - it is an eye opener.

                      DKF.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Ethnic origin tests are dubious.

                        Here is a report on the Science Article:ScienceDaily (Oct. 20, 2007) — For many Americans, the potential to track one's DNA to a specific country, region or tribe with a take-home kit is highly alluring. But while the popularity of genetic ancestry testing is rising - particularly among African Americans - the technology is flawed and could spawn unwelcome societal consequences, according to researchers from several institutions nationwide, including the University of California, Berkeley.

                        www.newspaperarchive.com"Because race has such profound social, political and economic consequences, we should be wary of allowing the concept to be redefined in a way that obscures its historical roots and disconnects from its cultural and socioeconomic context," says the article to be published in the journal Science.

                        The article recommends that the American Society of Human Genetics and other genetic and anthropological associations develop policy statements that make clear the limitations and potential dangers of genetic ancestry testing.


                        Some of the tests' limitations identified by Bolnick and her co-authors include:

                        Most tests trace only a few of your ancestors and a small portion of your DNA,
                        Tests are unlikely to identify all of the groups or locations around the world where a test-taker's relatives are found,
                        Tests may report false negatives or false positives,
                        Limited sample databases mean test results are subject to misinterpretation,
                        There is no clear connection between DNA and racial/ethnic identity,
                        Tests cannot determine exactly where ancestors lived or what ethnic identity they held.
                        Among the potentially problematic byproducts of widespread genetic ancestry testing: questionable claims of membership to Native American tribes for financial or other benefits; patients asking doctors to take ancestry tests into consideration when making medical decisions; and skewed census data due to people changing ethnicity on government forms.

                        Moreover, many Americans are emotionally invested in finding an ancestral homeland, and thus vulnerable to a test that can produce mixed results at best and false leads at worse. "This search for a homeland is particularly poignant for African Americans, who hope to recapture a history stolen by slavery," the study points out.

                        "It can give them false hope," said UC Berkeley sociology professor Troy Duster, who coauthored the study with researchers from the University of Texas, Harvard University, New York University, Yale University, Wellesley College, Arizona State University, University of North Carolina, University of Wisconsin, Loyola University, Hamline University Law School and UC Santa Cruz.

                        Last year, Harvard historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. hosted a four-part Public Broadcasting Service (PBS) documentary series, "African American Lives," that traced the ancestral roots of eight prominent African Americans, including talk show host Oprah Winfrey, music producer Quincy Jones and actress and comedienne Whoopi Goldberg.

                        After taking the test, Gates Jr. jokingly asked if he still qualified as chairman of African American Studies because at least half of his DNA is traced to Europe. But the search for roots can be a serious matter, as Duster pointed out in a February 2006 article in the Chronicle of Higher Education.

                        According to the researchers, the Seminole Nation of Oklahoma, for example, which won a land settlement now worth $56 million, requires one-eighth Seminole blood for members to receive benefits. In 2000, it changed its constitution to exclude black members of the tribe who do not meet blood-quantum requirements.

                        The descendants of these "Seminole Freedmen," or freed slaves, sought DNA testing in hopes to regain tribal benefits, despite the tribe's rejection of genetic ancestry testing as evidence of enrollment. Their expulsion was found to be a violation of the federal treaty, and they were re-enrolled in 2003.

                        "I hope to never see a day when genetic ancestry tracing with its inconclusive, continent-based affiliations supersedes treaties between specific nations and citizenship criteria that require documentation of named ancestors," said Kimberly TallBear, co-author of the article and a UC President's Postdoctoral Fellow with joint appointments in UC Berkeley's Departments of Gender and Women's Studies; Rhetoric; and Environmental Science, Policy, and Management.

                        More than two dozen companies sell genetic ancestry tests, which range in cost from $100 to $900. Nearly a half-million consumers have purchased these tests, and the tests' popularity shows no sign of abating.

                        "While some companies carefully explain what genetic ancestry tests can and cannot tell a test-taker, other companies provide less information about the limitations and assumptions underlying the tests," said Deborah Bolnick, assistant professor of anthropology at the University of Texas and lead author of the article.

                        For example, there are mitochondrial DNA tests, which trace the mother's lineage, and Y-chromosome tests which track paternal ancestry. The test-taker swipes the saliva inside his or her cheek, and sends the swab to the lab. The DNA is extracted and compared to samples from a reference database of haplotypes - a set of inherited, linked genetic markers - to see if there's a match.

                        Because these tests trace only one bloodline, however, they exclude most ancestors. Moreover, they cannot pinpoint where these ancestors lived. "Each test examines less that one percent of the test-taker's DNA and sheds light on only one ancestor each generation," the study says.

                        A third option, known as AncestryByDNA, or admixture testing, is more promising in that it examines non-sex chromosomes inherited from both parents, chromosomes that contain DNA segments from all ancestors. To a limited extent, this test can track the geographical movements of ancestors by examining single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs), some of which influence such traits as skin color and resistance to regional diseases. That said, the same SNPs may be found among several populations around the world, and thus can produce false leads.

                        "Worldwide patterns of human genetic diversity are weakly correlated with racial and ethnic categories because both are partially correlated with geography," the study says.

                        Moreover, the success of genetic matching depends largely on the number of samples in a company's database. "Even databases with 10,000 to 20,000 samples may fail to capture the full array of human genetic diversity in a particular population or region," the study says.

                        Furthermore, the study says, AncestryByDNA tests rely on "ancestry informative markers" (AIMs), which show genetic differences between what are assumed to be four biologically distinct populations: Africans, Europeans, East Asians and Native Americans.

                        But "the AIMs that characterize 'Africans,' for example, were chosen on the basis of a sample of West Africans. Dark-skinned East Africans might be omitted from the AIMS reference panel of 'Africans' because they exhibit different gene variants," the study points out.

                        The AncestryByDNA test also reads certain markers found in people from the Middle East, India and the Mediterranean region to be diagnostic of Native American ancestry, for which there is no historical, archeological or genetic evidence, according to the study.

                        Indeed, the article gives very little credence to these tests, which it concludes "cannot pinpoint the place of origin or social affiliation of even one ancestor with exact certainty."

                        Publication date in Science, October 18, 2007.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Yaffa
                          DKF,

                          I have a question. Your ABDNA score states 3-10% NA and you can trace your family to the Mohawk Tribe. Maria W has an ABDNA score of 10% NA and can trace her family back to the Potowomek Tribe. It seems both you and Maria are able to connect your ABDNA scores to paper. Rainbow's ABDNA is 17% which is higher than yours or Maria's.
                          I have 8% NA on the ABDNA 2.5 test and none of my ancestors have ever put their foot on in the new world, almost 100% of the lineages originated in Fennoscandia. Obviously you cant really trust these percentages, at least when in minority.

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Abdna

                            Originally posted by Noaide
                            I have 8% NA on the ABDNA 2.5 test and none of my ancestors have ever put their foot on in the new world, almost 100% of the lineages originated in Fennoscandia. Obviously you cant really trust these percentages, at least when in minority.
                            Maybe yes and maybe no. They are finding MT-DNA Haplogroup B in low dosages in Finland. I have met NA who have tested positive NA on MT-DNA and match Finland/Nordic on Y-DNA. They say the Vikings were here. Is it possible they mixed with the NA and brought NA women back to the Nordic areas in Europe. There is always that possibility you could have an NA acestor all the way back there.
                            Last edited by Yaffa; 20 October 2007, 01:13 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Yaffa
                              Maybe yes and maybe no. They are finding MT-DNA Haplogroup B in low dosages in Finland. I have met NA who have tested positive NA on MT-DNA and match Finland/Nordic on Y-DNA. They say the Vikings were here. Is it possible they mixed with the NA and brought NA women back to the Nordic areas in Europe. Possible.
                              Of course anything is possible and this is precisely the rationalization given by the creators of the test every time an inexplicable result emerges. Instead of admitting what is obvious to other scientists, that their test is dodgy and unpredictable at levels below 30%, they come up with wild justifications that of course no one can refute because "anything is possible".

                              I have studied the Vikings from head to toe and their perambulations and behavior. One of the reasons why they did not survive in Greenland is because they did not adapt, and adopt Inuit practices or intermarry with Inuit (all Skraelings to the Norse). The mixture seen in Greenland today is via more recent Danish occupancy.

                              Haplogroup B in Europe has a much more likely explanation and origin - Central Asia. It is simply unecessary to posit scenarios for which there is no evidence and little likelihood of an events occurrence when wave after wave of Scythians, Sarmatians, Huns, Avars, and the Golden Horde of Genghis were known to be not only on the doorstep of Europe, but penetrated its interior. At any rate the number of persons with mt haplogroup B in Europe is miniscule; much as African haplogroup B is rare but occasionally observed in England. The presence of these "erratics" (term used by Martin Richards) has no obvious explanation thus opening the door for wild speculation.

                              These explanations of Viking wives and the like certainly could not explain an 8% NA finding in someone from Scandinavia. Studies of this region using the program STRUCTURE which can better estimate admixture have found zero NA or EA in any Scandinavian population.

                              DKF.

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                My Amerindain heritage...

                                I take my Amerindian heritage very seriously. Don't tell me that I don't have Potowomecke Amerindian heritage. This information was a joint effort between me and Bill Deyo, tribal historian. He is out of Stafford County, Virginia. He is distant cousin to Cheif Robert "Two Eagles" Green Potowomecke... I am sure that you have either heard or seen the movie "The New World" well it was about the Powhatans. Robert Green was one of their consultants on the regalia they wore, he supplied them with alot of materials to recreate the regalia of the 1600's and his son had a small part in the movie as a warrior.....

                                My line:
                                1. Nemattanon (aka The Great Powatan, aka Don Luis De Velasco, this is what the Spanish who abducted him called him. He is father to Wahunsenacawh aka Powatan) + ?

                                2. Japasaw(aka Weroance of Potowomecke, Weroance of Passapatanzy) + Paupauwiske

                                3. Wahangonoche ( Weroance of Passapatanzy, Weroance of Potowomecke) + ?

                                4. Mary (Ann ?)(Wahangonoche's daughter) + Col. Henry Meese

                                5. Unnamed Meese daughter + Rev. John William Waugh Sr.

                                6. John William Waugh Jr. + Racheal Martha Mottershead

                                7. William Waugh + Margaret Tyler

                                8. John Tyler Waugh + Margaret Mauzy

                                9. John Lewis Waugh + Sarah Hall

                                10. Charles Waugh Sr. + Nancy Kennedy

                                11. Charles Emery Waugh Jr. +Harriet Hester Emdle McCoy Faulkner

                                12. Edith Mae Waugh + Samual Heber Boyer

                                13. Ermil Audreinne Boyer + Thomas Odell Wilson

                                14. Audrey Jeanne Wilson + Eugene Edward Shook

                                15. Maria Theresa Shook (me) + Randolph Orrin Walters

                                16. Crystal Jennifer Walters (No children)
                                16. Sheryl Ann Walters + David Duane Vanderveer

                                17. Dana Cheyenne Vanderveer.

                                Maria

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