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Need this Forum's advice on testing for ancestral or ethnic DNA background?

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  • Need this Forum's advice on testing for ancestral or ethnic DNA background?

    Sorry, this may have already been discussed, but I need advice on which
    test I should get for testing of ancestral or ethnic background. I haven't kept up with this forums' questions & answers, and there's wa-aayyyy too many new words being used that I haven't had time to check out or totally understand - mostly the tribes stuff & autosomal and the ENFSI stuff. I'm trying, but there's too many threads to sift through right now.

    I would like to find out my ancestral or ethnic roots but I'm confused by the autosomal tests FTDNA has listed. I also read the DNA by Ancestry website, so I'm not sure if that's the same testing done. Since I want the
    test done for myself and my brother I need to know if the autosomal test is the correct one because we are already "members" so it would save money,
    or does this test not give ancestral/ethnic background information?

    As you can see, I need HELP!
    Need your expertise and recommendations. Thanks in advance!

    Marcia
    (MTDNA - Haplogroup N*

  • #2
    The Ancestry by DNA test is only available through Ancestry by DNA (DNA Print). It purports to show percentages of ancestry from four broadly defined populations - IndoEuropean, East Asian, Native American and SubSaharan African. I expect they would want an original sample to do their own extraction.

    The DNATribes test uses 15 markers that are the same as those available from FTDNA's Autosomal Panel 1. You might save an extraction charge by ordering though FTDNA but you would still have to pay Tribes 100USD for their analysis of the lab results. It would be less expensive all-in-all to simply order through Tribes if you want a Tribes analysis.

    An alternative would be to order the markers through FTDNA and do your own analysis via Omnipop and ENFSI that are free. (If you choose this route you should also order markers D2 and D19 off Autosomal Panel 2 as ENFSI calls for them).

    Here are two logs where you can read of others' experiences with these two tests.

    www.dnaprintlog.org

    www.dnatribeslog.org

    BTW what is it you want to learn from such a test and why are you testing both your brother and yourself?

    Also if you want the Tribes test you might wait a bit until they update their roster of populations, that is supposed to happen in the near future.
    Last edited by tomcat; 28 August 2007, 01:12 PM.

    Comment


    • #3
      Well, DNA Tribes has a FAQ page at http://www.dnatribes.com/faq.html

      You're expecting Russian, Czech, and Hungarian matches, and DNA Tribes has at least one reference population of each of those: http://www.dnatribes.com/pops-eur.html

      Not much there from Britain yet.

      If you are of a well-mixed central European background like me, your results are likely to be strong matches with no populations and moderate matches with quite a few. Would that satisfy your research needs?

      You can also take your autosomal marker values which you get from DNA Tribes and put them into Omnipop to attempt your own analysis.

      I haven't used the other companies, so I can't comment on them.

      Jim

      Comment


      • #4
        You can do what I did and test with both Ancestry By Dna and DNA Tribes.

        AncestryByDna says I'm 17% Native American, 83% European.

        DNATribes Native American categories are at the bottom of the list, all with zeros. I have no matches with Native American populations.

        DNA Tribes World Region Scores:
        Andean (0)..........0.1
        Central American (0)..........0.0
        Mexican (0)..........0.0
        Artic (0)..........0.0
        Athabaskan (0)..........0.0
        Amazonian (0)..........0.0
        NorthAmerindian (0)..........0.0
        Ojibwa (0)..........0.0
        _________________


        If that looks contradictory to you, you're right.


        And, my original DNA Tribes report (before the new Penta upgrade) said my second highest match was Mozambique. That is in southeast Africa.
        Last edited by rainbow; 29 August 2007, 07:37 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks for the replies! And in answer to one of the questions, I'm just trying
          to find out as much as I can about my ancestors. Paper-trail-wise I got nothin'! Both sets of grandparents are from Eastern Europe & little villages that basically aren't around anymore thanks to WW II. I've searched the internet, questioned relatives, and without specific information I am sort of stuck in my quest for my true roots. I knew we were Polish and Ruthenian (Russian I guess) & Czech, so considering that I don't really fit the "look" - (blonde & blue eyed) - I thought there has to be something else in my families' background. A funny story - the short version - years ago in October I was at work doing my job, and my boss comes in and asks what I was doing there.
          I couldn't figure out what he meant until he said "I thought you'd take the day off - this being a Jewish Holiday." I just said "uh...I'm not Jewish!"

          My mom's side of the family is fair complected, I'm a little more olive complected I guess, their eyes range from really blue to barely a color at all,
          very faint blue or gray. My dad had hazel eyes, almost jet black hair & his one brother had the same coloring. Some of his sisters had green eyes, and I found out 2 of his aunts had bright red hair. And my dad and his siblings had prominent noses....which I've seen some Polish people have. But my dad always looked as though he was from the Middle East, it was just bizarre to me. My hair & eyes are brown so obviously I took after him. It bugged me
          that he just looked so Middle-Eastern coloring and everything, so finally last year I discover from my aunt that one of my 4xgreat-grandmother was Jewish, married outside her faith, her family disowned her, and that's how my dad's side of the family tree came about....I never knew anything about this before, nobody talked about it, it was just so weird to me.

          Anyway, based on that, it explains my dad's looks & mine as well. Since I
          have no names to track down, I decided I'd have to do the dna thing & try
          and find out more.

          THe reason for my brother tested as well - I realize now (after the fact) I
          could have had his MTDNA and the Y gene thing tested, but I didn't at the
          time I started this. I would like to find information on my dad's and my
          mom's side as well.

          I tried to get my aunt's DNA tested but I think the test was stolen before she got it or was delivered empty so I'm going to try it one more time & order
          a test for her again. She's my dad's sister and would have the direct line from the "Jewish" 4xgreat-grandmother, so I thought maybe that would give
          me a little more info as far as Haplogroup, etc.

          Based on what you all advised me I think I'll get the DNA test for the population percentages and then the DNA Tribes test. I'm not sure I could
          interpret the results if I had to do it myself! Plus I still have to pay the fee
          anyway. Since FTDNA already has our samples, I just thought I would go with them, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to determine the results.
          I guess I'd use FTDNA's test if I could figure the results myself.
          Is it complicated using the Omnipop and ENFSI thing? Or could someone like
          me (who really didn't get biology in school!) figure it out??

          Also - a question - not relative to this but maybe you can clairfy - I checked
          out my HVR1 and HVR2 mutations on that SMGF website - and to my surprise,
          I actually came up with a match for the same mutations. If you match
          somebody on both - and I mean same #'s, that has to mean you're related, right? And if so, is there any way to tell how far back the relationship goes?

          Thanks again for your help! Marcia S.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Marcia S.
            Also - a question - not relative to this but maybe you can clairfy - I checked
            out my HVR1 and HVR2 mutations on that SMGF website - and to my surprise,
            I actually came up with a match for the same mutations. If you match
            somebody on both - and I mean same #'s, that has to mean you're related, right? And if so, is there any way to tell how far back the relationship goes?

            Thanks again for your help! Marcia S.
            The rule of thumb given by FTDNA about mtDNA matches is that, if you have an exact match on both HVR1 and HVR2 mutations with someone, you probably share a common maternal line ancestor within the last 700 years. This is based on the current scientific understanding of average mtDNA mutation rates.

            Of course, your line's mutation rate could be below or above average, but 700 years is at the middle of the mutation range. If you can figure out a way to contact the person you match on SMGF, contact him or her and see if there's a time and place where both of you had ancestors and where a common ancestor lived. Since all the people in the SMGF database have their family tree posted, maybe you can get a clue for the surnames involved and search for postings (and an e-mail address) for this person on a message board at Ancestry.com or Rootsweb.com. This has worked for other people who found matches at SMGF.

            Mike Maddi

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Marcia S.
              ...
              Based on what you all advised me I think I'll get the DNA test for the population percentages and then the DNA Tribes test. I'm not sure I could
              interpret the results if I had to do it myself! Plus I still have to pay the fee
              anyway. Since FTDNA already has our samples, I just thought I would go with them, but I'm not sure how easy it would be to determine the results.
              I guess I'd use FTDNA's test if I could figure the results myself.
              Is it complicated using the Omnipop and ENFSI thing? Or could someone like me (who really didn't get biology in school!) figure it out??....
              Omnipop and ENFSI are simply calculators that produce match scores to populations based on the degree to which your allele profile agrees with the population allele profile. One simply enters one's allele and the programs do the rest. Tribes does the same thing with their proprietary version of the matching algorithm against their larger database of populations from all over the world. There are numerous threads on this forum on this topic, and you might get something out of reading them. Also you can get a free account at: www.dna-fingerprint.com where you can post your autosomal STR's in a comparative database, Amatch. There are a few 'Jewish alleles' posted there : )

              It is a great benefit to have an elder to test, especially if your interest is autosomal. Your Aunt would be an ideal candidate for the AbDNA2.5 and any of the follow-on Euro tests, and/or DNATribes, and/or FTDNA's panels, and/or FTDNA's X chromosome tests.

              Hope for your success and hope you will keep us posted.
              Last edited by tomcat; 30 August 2007, 01:20 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                mtdna matches info HVR1 & HVR2

                Hello Maddi et al.

                This is just a summary of some recent information I've come across:

                The quoted time on average for a full match on HVR1 & HVR2 may be 700 years but the mutation rate is a bit of a trickier problem for mtDNA than is currently suggested by ftDNA. Pedigree analysis can show mutations within pedigrees, in recent genealogical time, and show a faster rate of mutation than would be expected from evolutionary projections. Thus, there's a bit of a contradiction between studies of evolutionary mtdna mutation rates and genealogical mutation rates. The reason for this is not yet clear.

                There is a bit of a range for mtDNA mutation rates, depending on the research group that's published the finding. I've also gone so far as to consult some forensic researchers in the government and they don't yet have any clear answers.

                Another interesting fact that I came across recently was that in a study of Icelandic pedigrees only a limited number of maternal lines were the sources of offspring 100s of years later. To put it bluntly, many maternal lines die off.

                Overall, the random match probability of two individuals on HVR1 and HVR2 is some number (unknown) less than 1% (based on some studies in ethnic groups), but until more FGS mtdna results come in we won't know the overall likelihood or significance of FGS mtdna matches.

                Justin

                Comment


                • #9
                  Justin,

                  Thanks for that information about mtDNA matches and mutation rates. I always wondered if FTDNA's "700 year rule" for exact HVR1 and HVR2 matches is accurate. It sounds to me like it's very difficult to make any sort of estimate about if there's a common ancestor and when she may have lived. Perhaps more FGS results will make things clearer.

                  It was just announced that members of the Italy Project who order the FGS before Sept. 30 will get a significant discount. This is FTDNA's gift to celebrate the Italy Project hitting 300 members. I am seriously considering taking advantage of this and ordering the FGS in the next few weeks.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    mtDNA FGS

                    Mike,

                    I think the FGS is useful. I found something interesting with mine (nothing harmful). If you have private mutations the FGS is even more informative.

                    The paper that I referred to found a high rate of mtDNA mutations within a pedigree (in the Azores) and that rate was higher than the "evolutionary" rate of mtDNA mutations. (the difference is a factor of ten)

                    In some cases (and many people will disagree), I think that a FGS mtDNA match may indicate ancestry as recently as 250 years ago. The problem is that there haven't been enough pedigree studies yet to validate mutation rates and so the verdict is still out, in my opinion.



                    Justin

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Gosh, you people on this forum are awesome! I knew I was doing the right thing in asking for your advice. I really appreciate the time you took to reply and give such good information and suggestions on what my next step(s) should be.

                      Thanks to the information "Rainbow" had given me earlier on the Delta 32 test, I've already ordered that, so now I"m going to order the autosomal tests
                      and see what that gives me. And I do appreciate the info on the testing part for my aunt. I'm going to order the test again for her & send it to her
                      certified or whatever I need to make sure she gets it this time! (We're in different states).

                      Being an MTDNA Haplogroup N* there isn't a whole lot of information out there, so doing the additional testing may provide a little more information
                      regarding my ancestral trail. Based on my HVR1 & HVR2 mutations, someone told me I matched closer to the people in the W Haplogroup. However, today I discovered on my matches, they removed everyone in the other Groups ie. H and W. So guess the information I was reading on the W Groups really doesn't apply any longer. It never fails, I learn something new every day.

                      And I will check out the other threads for the information on the testing questions/answers I have. I haven't had a whole lot of time to
                      be on the computer, but things are slowing down now, so I'll make the effort
                      now & hopefully by the time my results come in I'll know what I need to do.
                      This whole quest is so fascinating to me, and am very excited about finding out my results. I know it'll be awhile to get the results, but I'll post them
                      as soon as I get them.

                      You FORUM people ROCK!!! Marcia S.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by rainbow
                        You can do what I did and test with both Ancestry By Dna and DNA Tribes.

                        AncestryByDna says I'm 17% Native American, 83% European.

                        DNATribes Native American categories are at the bottom of the list, all with zeros. I have no matches with Native American populations.

                        DNA Tribes World Region Scores:
                        Andean (0)..........0.1
                        Central American (0)..........0.0
                        Mexican (0)..........0.0
                        Artic (0)..........0.0
                        Athabaskan (0)..........0.0
                        Amazonian (0)..........0.0
                        NorthAmerindian (0)..........0.0
                        Ojibwa (0)..........0.0
                        _________________


                        If that looks contradictory to you, you're right.


                        And, my original DNA Tribes report (before the new Penta upgrade) said my second highest match was Mozambique. That is in southeast Africa.
                        I made a typo. The Andean is not 0.1. It is 0.01.

                        Comment

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