Sub-Saharan African

[dnaval]

Hi I would like your input comparing some
results I got on DNA tribes and DNA print.

My actual ancestry by DNA results were:
NA 12% EA 0% SSA 0% IE 88%

The graph showed a possible redline marker up to 10% on SSA
and possible redline marker up to 5% on Asian.
Anyone who is familar with the DNA print graph understands
these are only possibilities.

This is my World Region Match on DNA tribes:
What I am wondering is this..
I got North African(.52 )---------11.35
and (.05)---------------.66

Should I just mark this small % as not enough for proof.

Either way is fine..Just curious.
I you have any ideas on this I welcome them.

TY!

[tomcat]

North African is not 'African' in the DNAP universe, it is Indo-European. Sub-Saharan African in the DNAP universe is 'African'.

The fact that you got a North African match score from Tribes does not assure you that you have North African ancestry. It simply means that your allelic profile (that is, afterall, a composite of your parents) has a certain likelihood of matching to the allelic profiles of North Africans.

Cleopatra was a Ptolomy, a Greek, and Hannibal, Phoenician. The Berbers, et al, were Arab before the Arabs were Muslim. It isn't about the color of your skin or the content of your character, it is only about who gets to control coastal real estate.

[dnaval]

Thanks Tom, for the clarification on this matter.

Ok this kinda rules out the African American influence.
Very interesting about the North African response.

Val

North African is not 'African' in the DNAP universe, it is Indo-European. Sub-Saharan African in the DNAP universe is 'African'.

The fact that you got a North African match score from Tribes does not assure you that you have North African ancestry. It simply means that your allelic profile (that is, afterall, a composite of your parents) has a certain likelihood of matching to the allelic profiles of North Africans.

Cleopatra was a Ptolomy, a Greek, and Hannibal, Phoenician. The Berbers, et al, were Arab before the Arabs were Muslim. It isn't about the color of your skin or the content of your character, it is only about who gets to control coastal real estate.

[tomcat]

Ok this kinda rules out the African American influence.
Very interesting about the North African response.

Val

You might have African-American ancestry. Your DNAP results do nor rule-out such ancestry. But one would expect that any actual African ancestry would more likely show-up on the DNAP test than on the DNAT test. The DNAT test is less exact because the markers are less ancestry-informative and the profile-matching algorithm reads one's overall (composite) allelic profile. So your DNAT North African matches could be African or European or just a fluke.

[dnaval]

Yes I believe your totally right about that.

Odds are it's a very minor amount or nothing.
My mestizo was quite high on Native Tribes World Match.
So,I guess I was trying to see if that was Native American or African American or both.
Since NA was 12% on DNA print, It's seems more likely to be N.A.

That helps so much Tom!

Blessings,




Valerie

You might have African-American ancestry. Your DNAP results do nor rule-out such ancestry. But one would expect that any actual African ancestry would more likely show-up on the DNAP test than on the DNAT test. The DNAT test is less exact because the markers are less ancestry-informative and the profile-matching algorithm reads one's overall (composite) allelic profile. So your DNAT North African matches could be African or European or just a fluke.

[tcarter952]

sub saharan african

I'm confused. Is sub saharan africa the same as the sub equatorial africa.



Thank you

Teresa

[tcarter952]

L3e2b

Could someone assist me:

I'm confused with the terms sub -saharan africa and sub equatorial africa. I received my HVR1 test results. They are as follow.

haplogroup L3e2b
16172C
16183C
16189C
16223T
16320T
16519C

COULD SOMEONE CLARIFY WHAT EACH OF THESE FINDING MEANS?

My mtDNA Recent Ancestral Origins are: L3 Africa, L3 Portugal,
L3* Africa (what does L3* Africa and L3 portugal means)

L3e2b: Africa ,Angola, Cameroon, Canary Islands, Cape Verde, Guinea Bissau, Mozambique, Portugal, Sierra Leone Ethiopia, Kenya


There is a L3 Portugal and L3e2b Portugal in my MtDNA Ancestral origins result. What is the difference?

I am especially interested in Portugual and its Colonies: Angola, Canary Islands, Cape Verde, Gineau - Bissau, Mozambique, Cameroon. I have a characteristic of people refered to as Melungeons (mixed raced) here in the United States: There is a bump on the back of my HEAD located at mid-line, just ABOVE the juncture with the neck refered to as the Anatolian bump. (People who live in the Anatolian region of Turkey also have this “bump.” )
The Melungeons are thought to have portuguese, indian, african,jewish Iberian decent(probally other decent).

Because of the fact that the majority of my mtDNA Ancestral Origins appear to involve Portugal and its colonies (portugese connection)and given my mixed ancestrey here in the Unites I am inclined to believed the melungeons history here in the united states. Could someone shed more light on these and my HVR1 findings.

[tomcat]

...
COULD SOMEONE CLARIFY WHAT EACH OF THESE FINDING MEANS?

My mtDNA Recent Ancestral Origins are: L3 Africa, L3 Portugal,
L3* Africa (what does L3* Africa and L3 portugal means)

L3e2b: Africa ,Angola, Cameroon, Canary Islands, Cape Verde, Guinea Bissau, Mozambique, Portugal, Sierra Leone Ethiopia, Kenya

There is a L3 Portugal and L3e2b Portugal in my MtDNA Ancestral origins result. What is the difference?...

It means that you have HVR 1 matches to both L3*'s and L3e2b's who give their places of orgin as per above. Were you to upgrade to HVR 2 it is likely that the L3* matches would disappear and you would be left with a smaller, although more relevant, group of matches to L3e2b's, the subclade to which you evidently belong.

Although yours is an African haplotype it is not unusual to find 'cousins' in locales such as Portugal as the African diaspora has been going on for a very long time.

Sub-Saharan Africa is that greatest portion of Africa that lies south of the Saharan Desert. At its northern edge, Sub-Saharan Africa includes all the West African countries as well as portions of Central African Republic, Chad, Sudan, Ethiopia and Somalia. All African countries to the south are also Sub-Saharan.

Sub-Equitorial Africa is that portion of Africa south of the Equator. The Equator passes through Gabon, Congo, Zaire, Uganda, Kenya and Somalia. None of the West African countries are Sub-Equitorial but all countries further to the south are Sub-Equitorial.

Hope this helps.

[tcarter952]

sub saharan african

Tom


Thank you so very much for your reply. You have been extremely helpful. From your response the mayority of my mtDNA Recent origin appear to have been in the Saharan Africa(ton the map of africa,the colonies that had ties to portgual in my mtDNA Recent origin to the west).

My sister finally brought our gggrandmother old family bible by today. Earlier today I was reading through it and and still to my surprise a portuguese ancestry along with other ancestry is indicated from the early formation of the United States. How exciting it is. I am hoping that as I read further I will discover more information. Perhaps it will shed more light on this portugal situation, the melungeon peoples and this bump that I have located in the back of my head that is refered to as the "Anatolian bump" (I've known about this since childhood)
said to be found in people who live in the mediterrean area known as the Anatolian region of Turkey and some native american.

How interesting DNA is--Who would have thought that a six feet tall six inches dark skin person like me could possibly have this type of ancestry. Certainly the old saying that there many secrets in our genes is understated.

Would you have any explanation as to how this mediterrean characteristic came into play?

[cacio]

tcarter952:

haplogroups beginning with the letter "L" are typical subsaharan African, and African only (subsaharan as defined by tomcat: south of the Sahara). According to the paper cited below, haplogroup L3e2b is West African (that is, west of and including Nigeria), and is frequent among African Americans. I don't know whether subsequent research has found L3e2b among other populations (eg the Bantus in the southern part of the continent). I don't think it is possible to zoom in any further into the likely geographic origin. As such, it could have come to America in many ways, as many European countries were involved in the slave trade in West Africa.

I gathered this information from two papers. They are very difficult to read, but you can simply look at two figures to get some broad ideas.

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v74n3/40631/40631.html

Figure 1 is a pie chart that shows the frequency of L3e in parts of Africa and America. (note: this is for L3e as a whole. Your L3e2b, as said in the paper, is more specifically west African). Table 1 also has the general HVR1 sequence for L3e2b: 172-189-223-320. The paper doesn't go beyond 400, so it won't show 519, but they likely have it too.)

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v71n5/024272/024272.html

which discusses the origin of L3e2b at some point. Figure 1 provides a pie chart of Africa.

As tomcat was saying, the presence in Portugal is due to the slave trade (ie Africans going to Brazil and Portugal, rather than viceversa), so really you shouldn't read too much into the Portuguese connection. I am a little skeptical about the countries cited in the REO. These are self-reported countries. However, I don't think anybody in Africa has tested, so these must be African Americans who have given these countries as ultimate countries of origin. While some African Americans may know the exact origin, I suspect most don't, so may be some of these are just hypothetical. Especially Kenia and Ethiopia. These east African countries, especially Ethiopia, are somewhat different from West Africa in terms of DNA, and very few American slaves, if any at all, came from these areas.

cacio

[Bracari]

Brazilians L3 mtDNA in Niger-Congo speaking populations and the formation of the Brazilian gene pool: mtDNA and Y-chromosome data
Tábita Hünemeier 1, Cláudia Carvalho 2, Andrea Rita Marrero 1, Francisco Mauro Salzano 1, Sérgio Danilo Junho Pena 2, Maria Cátira Bortolini 1 *

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/abstract/114209614/ABSTRACT?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

50 L3 223 1 1
51 L3b 124 223 278 362 1 2
52 L3b 124 145 223 278 362 2
53 L3b1 223 278 294 362 2
54 L3b2 124 223 278 311 362 2
55 L3d 124 223 319 2
56 L3d 124 223 278 290 292 312 362 1
57 L3d1 124 223 1
58 L3d1 124 145 223 278 290 319 362 1
59 L3d1 124 223 278 290 319 362 1
60 L3d2 124 223 256 4
61 L3e1 223 327 1 4
62 L3e1 176 223 327 1 1
63 L3e1a 185 223 327 1 1
64 L3e1a 185 223 311 327 2
65 L3e1a 185 209 223 327 2
66 L3e1b 223 325D 327 1
67 L3e2 093 192 223 320 1
68 L3e2 192 223 320 1
69 L3e2b 172 189 223 320 2
70 L3e3 223 265T 3 2
71 L3e3 223 265T 355 1
72 L3e3 223 265T 316 1
73 L3e3 223 265T 288 1
74 L3e3 189 223 265T 2
75 L3f 209 223 311 2 2
76 L3f 192 209 223 311 1
77 L3f1 129 209 223 292 295 311 1 2
78 L3f1 093 129 209 223 292 295 311 1
79 L3f1 209 223 292 311 2
80 L3g 093 223 287 293T 301 311 355 362 2
81 L3g 093 223 293T 301 311 355 362 1

[cacio]

Bracari:

sounds like an interesting paper - though I don't have access to it.

Does the article say where the observations come from? For instance, I see an L3e2b (69), but it doesn't say whether it's niger, congo, or brazil.

cacio

[tomcat]

...

My sister finally brought our gggrandmother old family bible by today. Earlier today I was reading through it and and still to my surprise a portuguese ancestry along with other ancestry is indicated from the early formation of the United States. How exciting it is. ....

How interesting DNA is--Who would have thought that a six feet tall six inches dark skin person like me could possibly have this type of ancestry. Certainly the old saying that there many secrets in our genes is understated.

...

Bless you TCarter. There may be no other person in the world that could research your family's history. No historian of BIG history would ever give your family's history the attention it deserves. But no BIG history would be worth anything without the heart and detail of the history you can write.

[tcarter952]

sub-saharan Africa

Thank you Cacio

Your explanation and TomCat explanation of the ancient portugal ancestry makes a whole lot of sense. Both of your theory on How my portugal ancestry arrived here in the United is an acceptable one also. One thing that is certain is that it is here.......Some of the names mentioned in my gggrandmother bible are mixed race families that( lived in Viriginia and Tenneses) our family have known in past generation and now in reading her bible they are identified with dates birth and death as being cousins.The bible
is a very sacred book to my family and especially to the elderly family member both present and past (It was where they documented major events in their families(birth, death, marriages)


Would either of you know how I could further my research here in America. I will be traveling to virginia next month. Some of my elderly relations have other family bibles that have been past down through the years-Hopefully they will yield more info regarding my ancestry here.

[tomcat]

...how I could further my research here in America. I will be traveling to virginia next month. Some of my elderly relations have other family bibles that have been past down through the years-Hopefully they will yield more info regarding my ancestry here.

I would talk with as many family elders as possible and tape-record the conversations. While there are many formal methods of genealogical research, family lore and memories and photographs and bible records are IRREPLACABLE. Make copies of everything. Maybe there is already a family historian among your relations. I am sure there are genealogists in areas of origin that specialize in African-American and mixed-race genealogy. There are also genetic-testing companies specifically concerned with African genealogy and other online forums where African genealogy is specifically discussed. You would likely find more useful expertise there. Good hunting!