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R1b1c... where next?

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  • R1b1c... where next?

    Hi there, a classic newby question but I'm interested in what I can glean from the results I have so far and where to look next in understanding the haplotype and genealogical possibilities. I'm new to this so all thoughts are welcome.

    My Y-search user identity is BC6V6 by the way

    So far I have...

    M173+ M207+ M269+ M343+ P25+ M126- M153- M160- M18- M222- M37- M65- M73- P66- SRY2627-

    and the following 25...

    393 = 13
    390 = 23
    19* = 14
    391 = 11
    385a = 11
    385b = 14
    426 = 12
    388 = 12
    439 = 13
    389-1 = 13
    392 = 13
    389-2*** = 29
    458 = 19
    459a = 9
    459b = 10
    455 = 11
    454 = 11
    447 = 24
    437 = 15
    448 = 19
    449 = 30
    464a** = 15
    464b** = 15
    464c** = 15
    464d** = 18

  • #2
    Where next? It all depends on what you're trying to find out.

    If you're trying to knock down a brick wall or jumpstart your paper trail research, you want to look for close matches to your haplotype and upgrade the number of markers, if necessary. Here's a link to those on ysearch who are a genetic distance of 1 or 2 from you, at 25 markers - You have 4 matches at that relatively close level. However, if you want to prove a recent common ancestor with any of them you need 37 or 67 markers. Three of these people already have 37 markers, so if you upgrade to 37 you can immediately see if the match continues to hold up. If there are any 35/37 or better matches, then you're looking at a common ancestor within the last few hundred years.

    Looking at the 3 who have 37 markers, I noticed that they all have fairly high marker values for CDYa-b. All have CDYa=38 and one each has CDYb of 41, 42 or 43. This is a marker among the first 37 that has one of the fastest mutation rates, but those values are high for R1b. Only 16% of R1b's have CDYa=38 and the percentage of R1b's for CDYb of 41-43 combined is just 5%. And these three are in general close to you at 25 markers. This makes me wonder if this is a cluster of people who are related going back more than a few hundred years, since there are 3 different surnames involved. If you upgrade to 37 markers and you have CDYa=38 and CDYb of 41 or more, that would be interesting.

    If you're interested in deep ancestry questions, like were your ancestors of 1-2,000 or more years ago Celts or Anglo-Saxon or something else, you might have some possibilities there. You already know from your deep clade test that you're not R1b1c1-8, since you're negative on all SNPs downstream from M269. However, you have what might be considered a "Frisian" haplotype. I say that based on your 390=23 and 447=24. These are one step down from the general R1b modal values and are two of the key markers in a "Frisian" haplotype. This haplotype is found mainly on the northern coast of Europe (Netherlands, Germany and Denmark) and among those of English ancestry who are probably descended from Anglo-Saxon or Viking invaders.

    The SNP that defines R1b1c9 is S21 and many R1b1c9's have a Frisian haplotype. The estimate is that 20-25% of R1b's with European ancestry are S21+. Since FTDNA doesn't test for S21, you'd have to send a sample to the only company that tests for that, Ethnoancestry. However, if you upgrade to 67 markers at FTDNA and have 492=13, there's a very good chance that you are S21+. But the only definite answer to that question is provided by Ethnoancestry's SNP test.


    • #3
      Thanks, that's helpful. Actually, I was waiting for the 37 marker test and now that's come through it's uploaded on FTDNA and Ysearch.

      460 = 11
      GATA H4 = 11
      YCA II a = 19
      YCA II b = 23
      456 = 16
      607 = 15
      576 = 18
      570 = 18
      CDY a = 38
      CDY b = 41
      442 = 12
      438 = 12
      Last edited by Guest; 26 July 2007, 06:58 AM.


      • #4
        Well, it turns out that your CDYa-b=38-41, which is certainly interesting. This means you share that high value with the others who are close to you.

        Now that you have 37 markers, I did a search on ysearch for those who are a genetic distance (GD) of 7 or less from you. Here's what came up -

        West, Talbot and Thompson are still close to you with a GD of 6 or less. Then there are 5 at a GD of 7, four of whom have the surname Vance. In the case of one of the Vances, his ancestry is Irish, whereas yours is English. Also notice that all 5 at a GD of 7 have 390=24 and 447=25, the R1b modal, whereas you and West, Talbot and Thompson have the "Frisian" values of 390=23 and 447=24. I had noted that in my previous posting.

        I'm going to go out on a limb and say that, because of that difference in the two groups at 390 and 447, those at a GD of 7 from you are not related. They're close to you, but just based on convergence. But West, Talbot and Thompson are related to you at some point in the past.

        I plugged the haplotype values for you and the 8 with a GD of 7 or less into the McGee yDNA utility, at This utility takes any number of haplotypes and compares each to all the others in terms of GD and Time to Most Recent Common Ancestor (TMRCA). In the comparison of your haplotype to the 8 others, the TMRCA for you and Thompson is estimated to be 360 years. TMRCA for you and West is 510 years and for you and Talbot is 960 years. The TMRCA for you and the group I don't think is actually related to you ranges from 960 to 1,110 years.

        I may be wrong, but I think you can ignore the matches with the Vances and Switzer. Three of them have 67 markers and have 492=12, which would indicate S21-. But since I don't think you're related to them, you still may be S21+. Thompson's family tree on ysearch shows that he's traced his paternal line to N. Carolina in 1729. West is able to trace his paternal line to 1786 and he lists country of origin as unknown. You have more information than both, so I'm not sure that they'll be able to help you or even find a common ancestor, who was probably back in England. But it wouldn't hurt to compare family trees to see if you come up with ancestors living near each other in the U.S. at the same time. You might want to upgrade to 67 markers and see if Thompson, the closest one to you, will do that too. That might narrow down the TMRCA. You would also find your value for 492 and get a better idea if you're S21+. If you really are interested in finding out if you're S21+, you should order the S-series test from Ethnoancestry.
        Last edited by MMaddi; 26 July 2007, 12:06 PM.