Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Haplogroup J2 in South India / Tamil peoples

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #31
    Assyrians and Turks

    Originally posted by father_R2
    I don't think there was any big difference between slave-soldiers and slaves. The freed slave-soldiers occupied high positions in the administration. So, 'good conduct' elevated their rank and not made them mercenaries. They even built small kingdoms. The story of Turks and Assyrians in the early days of Islamic rule in India was also similar.
    This may explain the pressence of E3b among the muslims and the absence of E3b among Hindus of UP. thanks,

    regards,

    bob

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by bob_chasm
      This may explain the pressence of E3b among the muslims and the absence of E3b among Hindus of UP. thanks,

      regards,

      bob

      From the article it appears only Shias have E3b. Probably, Persians/Azeri Turks admixture. I guess Shias make up 10% total Indian muslim population.

      Comment


      • #33
        Wow quite a lot of responses by the time I get back to looking at this.

        Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck
        Sengupta et al. seem to say that J2 was in India 10,000 years before there were any Semitic languages. "Further, the mean expansion time of J2b2 in India is 13.8 KYA (table 11), clearly earlier than the appearance of agriculture."

        Jim
        J1
        I didn't necessarily say Semitic gave rise to Tamil, but maybe quite the opposite. Wasn't it suggested that there was a "back to Africa" from "somewhere in Asia" where the Y-DNA mutated in Asia (maybe south Asia?) and returned to Africa (Semitic speaking peoples?) and this explains the diversity of the mutations?

        Comment


        • #34
          Nagelfar

          I think the evidence for a backmigration could be in mtdna M1, or Y K2, both of which must represent very ancient migrations, presumably before any of the modern language groups developed. In Ethiopia, there is also a fair amount of Y chromosome J(1), but mostly in the semitic speaking northern populations.

          I think it is problematic to assume a very easterly origin for the language group, because Afro Asiatic languages (the group to which the semitic languages belong) are centered in Africa (which has most of the branches: cu****ic, berber, coptic). The semitic subgroup itself seems to have developed in the middle east, though, and I think it is assumed that the semitic languages spoken in Ethiopia (eg amharic) do come from Arabia (and presumably find their counterpart in the J presence in Ethiopia).

          But, as said, right now the ancestors of semitic languages seem to have been West rather than East.

          cacio

          Comment


          • #35
            shia

            Originally posted by father_R2
            From the article it appears only Shias have E3b. Probably, Persians/Azeri Turks admixture. I guess Shias make up 10% total Indian muslim population.
            I think there are between 160 to 200 million Muslims in India and they are about 16-20% of India. I think there are between 50 to 60 million shia in India. City of Luknow in Uttar Pradesh has one of the largest concentrations of shia in the country.

            regards

            bob

            Comment


            • #36
              E3b in UP muslims

              Originally posted by father_R2
              From the article it appears only Shias have E3b. Probably, Persians/Azeri Turks admixture. I guess Shias make up 10% total Indian muslim population.
              father R2: I dont know if the Iranian/ Azeri population has such sufficent levels of E3b. After searching the net, it appears Northern Egypt/ Syria has high levels of E3b and may have had a shia population at some time. However, I dont know if there was an Islamic connection between the shia Egyptian/ Syria rulers and the shia of India. Perhaps Kaiser can shed some light on Islamic history.


              regards

              bob

              Comment


              • #37
                Agarwal study

                Originally posted by cacio
                bob_chasm:

                I have not seen the Agarwal study that finds E in Uttar Pradesh. It seems unique in this, nobody else finds it. May be they just stumbled upon the one outlier village in India.

                cacio

                hope the link works http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/jun252005/1977.pdf

                Comment


                • #38
                  The Agarwal paper, "YAP, signature of an African–Middle Eastern migration into northern India" is ambivalent as to the origin of YAP amongst Shiite (Shia/Shiya) of Uttar Pradesh (UP). I quote:

                  "The present report documents the presence of YAP+ve lineage among any contemporary North Indian population. Further, the presence of YAP/M145/M03/SRY4064 (haplogroup E) lineage clearly indicates that the source of this lineage among Shiya Muslims is either from Africa or Middle East."

                  My understanding is part conjectural, part based on history. Briefly, I have the following to submit:

                  The Nawabs of Oudh [pr: avadh] ruled what was a province of the Mughal Empire till 1819, after which they established their own "prinicipality" with its capital at Lucknow. (Swatch even has a "Nabob" line of watches! ) The Nawabs were Shiite and, as expected, were partial to their sect, which flourished by conversions (as usual, of the under-privleged) as well as migrations from Iran. The under-priveleged were mostly of low caste and also included a small unique group of African slaves, so common amongst depraved Muslim rulers as much as white men. (Slavery in the Orient wasn't exactly the cotton plantation and whip stuff of Alex Haley, though) I believe the UP E3b lot to be largely ex-African rather than Mid-Eastern, possibly due to historical and social circumstances. Shiite endogamous practices preserved the gene pool within the geographic bounds of UP and, 'founder effect' did the rest, ie, a disproportionately large section of E3b in an incongruous land of the Nabobs!
                  Last edited by Kaiser; 7 July 2007, 11:00 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Bob:

                    thanks a lot for the paper, which is quite interesting.

                    As Kaiser was pointing out, it's a pity they only tested D vs E, not even E3b! The sample seems pretty large 140 shia with 17 E. Also, they claim the sample was collected from several towns, though as usual, it is not clear how dispersed the results were, ie if all 17 were found in one town. After all, it is possible that in a smaller town there aren't very many shias around, or at least, they're not genetically diverse.

                    The other interesting piece of information is that they also cite some data about the Siddi, who are apparently 38% E (!). So this confirms what Kaiser et al were saying about them. The sample is tiny (11 people, so probably 4/11 are E), but it makes sense. The source of this info are papers by Ramana, which I don't have.

                    cacio

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      swatch

                      Originally posted by Kaiser
                      The Agarwal paper, "YAP, signature of an African–Middle Eastern migration into northern India" is ambivalent as to the origin of YAP amongst Shiite (Shia/Shiya) of Uttar Pradesh (UP). I quote:

                      "The present report documents the presence of YAP+ve lineage among any contemporary North Indian population. Further, the presence of YAP/M145/M03/SRY4064 (haplogroup E) lineage clearly indicates that the source of this lineage among Shiya Muslims is either from Africa or Middle East."

                      My understanding is part conjectural, part based on history. Briefly, I have the following to submit:

                      The Nawabs of Oudh [pr: avadh] ruled what was a province of the Mughal Empire till 1819, after which they established their own "prinicipality" with its capital at Lucknow. (Swatch even has a "Nabob" line of watches! ) The Nawabs were Shiite and, as expected, were partial to their sect, which flourished by conversions (as usual, of the under-privleged) as well as migrations from Iran. The under-priveleged were mostly of low caste and also included a small unique group of African slaves, so common amongst depraved Muslim rulers as much as white men. (Slavery in the Orient wasn't exactly the cotton plantation and whip stuff of Alex Haley, though) I believe the UP E3b lot to be largely ex-African rather than Mid-Eastern, possibly due to historical and social circumstances. Shiite endogamous practices preserved the gene pool within the geographic bounds of UP and, 'founder effect' did the rest, ie, a disproportionately large section of E3b in an incongruous land of the Nabobs!
                      kaiser: I want a nabob swatch

                      This is interesting and seems plausible. Although, the absence of African mtdna raises an interesting question about who they married, if they were slaves. Cant imagine the nabobs gave them their daughters to marry, regardless of how much you say slavery under Islam differed from that in the west. Hopefully, a more detailed study will help answer these questions. BTW, the paper suggests the general shia and sunni population of UP genetically resembles Brahmins and rajputs, (upper and middle castes) more than Indian lower castes. So Im not sure the sunni and shia muslims of UP were that down trodden.

                      cacio: I agree we probably need a follow up study

                      regards,

                      bob

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Other 'E' signatures in South Asia

                        Besides the E3b signature amongst Shiites of UP, 'Siddis' of Andhra Pradesh and 'Sheedis' of Makran (Baluchistan, Pakistan) also need mention. The Nawabs of Hyderabad State (now Andhra Pradesh, capital Hyderabad) also had the 'privelege' of owning slaves, like some of the jesters and clowns of the Muslim Imperial ilk. Similarly, Omani Sultans, whose suzerainty extended to Gwadar District of Pakistan and, held court as far off as Zanzibar, were also given to slavery. The Talpur Mirs of Sindh (Pakistan) learnt a thing or two from their Omani neighbours and inducted 'second hand' slaves in their court too. So we see an all-too-common picture where African-origin slaves were inducted in the court for domestic help as harem-keepers (castrated variety), courtiers and warriors. Who they married is an interesting question, given that some still had functional gonads . Well, who else but their female slave counterparts!! The latter were kept in hordes for the pleasure of the Sultans and Nabobs.

                        bob: You mentioned something about absence of mtDNA. At least two papers have documented 40% L1a/b/c/d amongst the 'Sheedis' of Makran. I don't see any reason why the females amongst Shiite Africans of UP as well as Siddis of Andhra Pradesh would not have such high figures; of course, a study is needed for a surer conclusion. A second point about the genetic similarity of Shias and Sunnis to Brahmins and Rajputs that you mentioned. They all share Y-DNA R1a and J1/J2, don't they?

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          http://www.deccanherald.com/archives/mar202005/n1.asp

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Here is an interesting link to the Sheedis of Makran:

                            http://pakistaniat.com/2006/09/17/th...prings-part-1/

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Iranian migration to Uttar Pardesh?

                              Seems like many shia came to UP from Iran:

                              http://content.cdlib.org/xtf/view?do...3&brand=eschol

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Kaiser
                                bob: You mentioned something about absence of mtDNA. At least two papers have documented 40% L1a/b/c/d amongst the 'Sheedis' of Makran. I don't see any reason why the females amongst Shiite Africans of UP as well as Siddis of Andhra Pradesh would not have such high figures; of course, a study is needed for a surer conclusion. A second point about the genetic similarity of Shias and Sunnis to Brahmins and Rajputs that you mentioned. They all share Y-DNA R1a and J1/J2, don't they?
                                kaiser: The Radianceweekly article speaks to the absence of African mtdna in this population. As you pointed out the sheedi population is usually 3:1 African mtdna to African Y dna. Considering that UP shia were nearly 12% haplogroup E Ydna, wouldnt we expect their women possessed between 30% -40% African mtdna like other sidis? Then there is the issue of why they all converted to shia Islam in a sea of sunni muslims and hindus? The total absence of African mtdna and shia male Es, suggests a different mechanism than a Shidi slave family purchased from Africa by a brutal shia nawab and forced to convert to shia islam.

                                regards,

                                bob

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X