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Haplogroup J2 in South India / Tamil peoples

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  • Haplogroup J2 in South India / Tamil peoples

    A significant presence of J2 (J2b2+J2a) was also detected in western and south-western India (the highest being 21% among Dravidian middle castes, followed by upper castes, 18.6%, and lower castes 14%; Sengupta et al. 2006).
    Isn't this interesting? I wonder, with the semitic populations also having high J2 frequencies, what the comparison is between Semitic and Dravidian language groups. I've read attempted associations to all other language groups but the Semitic/Afro-asiatic ones.

    According to wikipedia:

    "The origins of the Dravidian languages...are unclear, partially due to the lack of comparative linguistic research into the Dravidian languages."

    &

    "unsuccessful attempts have also been made to link the family with the Japonic languages, Basque, Korean, Sumerian, the Australian Aboriginal languages and the unknown language of the Indus Valley civilisation. The theory that the Dravidian languages display similarities with the Uralic language group...has, however, been rejected by specialists in Uralic languages"

    They mention just about everything but semitic!

  • #2
    Originally posted by Nagelfar
    Isn't this interesting? I wonder, with the semitic populations also having high J2 frequencies, what the comparison is between Semitic and Dravidian language groups. I've read attempted associations to all other language groups but the Semitic/Afro-asiatic ones.

    According to wikipedia:

    "The origins of the Dravidian languages...are unclear, partially due to the lack of comparative linguistic research into the Dravidian languages."

    &

    "unsuccessful attempts have also been made to link the family with the Japonic languages, Basque, Korean, Sumerian, the Australian Aboriginal languages and the unknown language of the Indus Valley civilisation. The theory that the Dravidian languages display similarities with the Uralic language group...has, however, been rejected by specialists in Uralic languages"

    They mention just about everything but semitic!
    Sengupta et al. seem to say that J2 was in India 10,000 years before there were any Semitic languages. "Further, the mean expansion time of J2b2 in India is 13.8 KYA (table 11), clearly earlier than the appearance of agriculture."

    Jim
    J1

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    • #3
      Sengupta seems to have an Indocentric view, so he may tend to pre-date the presence of most haplogroups in India.

      As for dravidian, I think I've read that the language spoken by the Indus civilization may have been dravidian, though we don't really know anything about the language itself. That would of course be the 2nd-3rd millennium BC, so this doesn't say much about where they came from before.

      cacio

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      • #4
        The dates for the development of agriculture are a bit uncertain. According to a recent NY Times article, rye may have been domesticated as early as 13,000 years ago. The spread of J2b to India may still be in line with the development of agriculture.
        Oddly enough, on the same NY Times page was another story about the domestication of cats. The theory is that cats domesticated themselves (on their own terms of course), and were accepted by humans for grain protection. On the basis of dna analysis the oldest discovered domestic cat lived in Cyprus around 9500 years ago. However associated with this finding were estimates that the same species first domesticated itself from Near Eastern deserts around 12,000 years ago. See, it all fits.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by josh w.
          ... The theory is that cats domesticated themselves (on their own terms of course), and were accepted by humans for grain protection. On the basis of dna analysis the oldest discovered domestic cat lived in Cyprus around 9500 years ago. However associated with this finding were estimates that the same species first domesticated itself from Near Eastern deserts around 12,000 years ago....

          When humans started to store harvested grain, those deposits attracted the attention of 'vermin' with a nose for a valuable food source. Cats, who were predators of the 'vermin,' simply followed their food source to the food source of their prey.

          If the harvest of grain (prior to full, pro-active grain-plant domestication) was annually reliable (given requisite climatological conditions and the progress of human selection of plants of value - weeding is the essential operation of cultivators) then one might say we co-evolved with cats just as ungulates co-evolved with grasses.

          If the enemy of my enemy is my friend ...

          A few thoughts on reading Josh W.'s post with Zilla on my lap, an 11 year old tabby who has ever been my nest-mate - she knows I like her and I know she likes me. (The imaginative will inevitably propose that if I cut-off her kibble she would disappear. But that is not going to happen. And she, when hunting was good, has always been PROUD and HAPPY to share her catches with me).
          Last edited by tomcat; 2 July 2007, 09:38 PM.

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          • #6
            A Dravidian-speaking people known as Brauhi live in the Kalat Division of Baluchistan. The language also goes by the name of Brauhi. Apparently, these people are remnants of a much larger population which was pushed South by new Aryan and Sycthian incursions, over time. The Brauhi, I suspect, hold the clue to the origin of Dravidians. So far as can be established, they MAY be the Elamites of South Western Iran and were part of the 'demic diffusion' at the dawn of Neolithic. As for Sengupta's study, J2a and J2b2 are the principal sub-clades of Y-DNA Hap J and, their presence is largely amongst the upper and middle castes, though incidence amongst low castes and tribes is also evident. It is well-known that upper castes were the domain of 'outsiders' who had the technological advantages for 'dominanating' the indigenous peoples. Do we see R1a1 (Aryans) pushing the J2 (Elamites) further south or, (in another interpretation) the J2 'migrating' south to preserve their language and culture? Brauhi have a high concentration of Hap J (12%-J1, 16% J2a), which seems to point to a Dravidian vestige.

            Comment


            • #7
              Kaiser:

              very good point about the dravidians. I thus went and re-browsed Sengupta and Quintana Murci. QM cites the origin of the elamo-dravidian hypothesis, ie that those languages developed in the iranian plateau (hp made by some linguist in 1974) and uses the Brahui to argue for it. She points out that the mtdna of the Brahui is mostly West Eurasian, which makes it difficult to think that they came from India.

              Sengupta criticizes this view, though I must say I did not entirely understand his logic. He uses haplogroup L1 as one of the arguments, saying that haplogroup L1 has its highest variance in India, so that it must have developed there, and in ancient times, ie before a dravidian migration. It also points out that L3 (and L3) are almost absent in India, which makes L a poor candidate for a dravidian migration from Iran. Together with other arguments, he thus dismisses the idea that Dravidian may have come to India from Iran with agriculture, but favors an earlier, Indian origin for the group.
              (Of course, the fact that L has its highest diversity in Pakistan implies that its origin was there, though, again, it is a matter of when it did so.)

              Given the complexity of the Indian DNA landscape, I guess the issue is not going to be solved anytime soon. Given, moreover, that we have no clue on what people spoke before writing was invented (and even after that, we still cannot decipher the Indus valley writings).

              cacio

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              • #8
                J2a appears much older among Dravidians than J2b. Dravidian tribes(Koya, Kurumba and Toda) have J2a but lack J2b clan members(Sengupta et al.) Probably, there were multiple migrations of J2a.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by cacio
                  ... She points out that the mtdna of the Brahui is mostly West Eurasian, which makes it difficult to think that they came from India. cacio
                  cacio: Brauhi women have a high incidence of West Eurasian mtDNA Hap 'H': 26%. ("Where West Meets East: The Complex mtDNA Landscape of the Southwest and Central Asian Corridor", Lluı´s Quintana-Murci). Considering all Haplogroups as well, Brauhi women have the second highest concentration of West Eurasian mtDNA in Pakistan, ie 45%. (The Kalash women lead with 75% West Eurasian Haplogrouops). There is enough commonality of Brauhis with Iranian mtDNA haplogroups. Brauhi women share HV, H, J1 and T with their Iranian counterparts. Does it explain an Iranian connection? And, do J1 and T point to a Neolithic expansion?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it turns out that the ancient Sumerians, Elamites, & Dravidians were all members of a J2 population that spread before 2,000 BC from Mesopotamia eastward. I suspect that Mesopotamia experienced a lot of immigration from North Africa (E3b) after 3,000 BC as the Sahara became uninhabitable & this was likely the source of Afro-asiatic (ie Semitic) languages.

                    J2 is likely a remnant of the earlier population, which was liklely Dravidic speaking. E3b represents the later population, which is Semitic speaking.

                    Timothy Peterman

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                    • #11
                      Kaiser and T.E.:

                      I think the evidence clearly points to some type of neolithic dispersion
                      from Anatolia/ME into India: J2's and several mtdna types (including my own U1a). Whether dravidian-speaking or not is a different story. And languages can change pretty fast, so it'll be really hard to say.

                      Interesting point about E3b and Afro-Asian languages. You are right that J2 doesn't really seem to correspond to the Semitic group, in antiquity, since it is spread in the N of the middle east, Anatolia, Iran, but much less so in the S part or in Africa. I guess more evidence about people in the Sahel would help understand their relation to the subsaharian people and those in N africa.

                      cacio

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by father_R2
                        J2a appears much older among Dravidians than J2b. Dravidian tribes(Koya, Kurumba and Toda) have J2a but lack J2b clan members(Sengupta et al.) Probably, there were multiple migrations of J2a.

                        Do you happen to know the percentage of J2a among these tribes?

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                        • #13
                          E3b

                          Originally posted by T E Peterman
                          I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it turns out that the ancient Sumerians, Elamites, & Dravidians were all members of a J2 population that spread before 2,000 BC from Mesopotamia eastward. I suspect that Mesopotamia experienced a lot of immigration from North Africa (E3b) after 3,000 BC as the Sahara became uninhabitable & this was likely the source of Afro-asiatic (ie Semitic) languages.

                          J2 is likely a remnant of the earlier population, which was liklely Dravidic speaking. E3b represents the later population, which is Semitic speaking.

                          Timothy Peterman
                          My understanding is that in addition to significant numbers of J2a, 10% of muslims in UP India are E3b. However, E3b was absent among the Hindu population in the region. What is the significance of this E3b pressence?

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                          • #14
                            bob_chasm:

                            what is your source about the Uttar Pradesh muslims? I looked at Sengupta, and he doesn't find any E3b in India, nor does a paper on the muslim in Andra Pradesh. The only (little) E3b I know of in the subcontinent is in Pakistan, and there was a recent paper linking one haplotype found in the Pashto to Greece/Macedonia (ie Alexander).

                            J man:

                            according to Sengupta, the percentages of
                            J2a-M410 are:
                            dravidian: tribe 1.5%, upper caste 13.5, middle c 2%, lower 3%
                            indoeuropean: upper caste 9.3%, middle 4.1%, lower 1%

                            J2b2-M241
                            Austro-asiatic tribe 10%
                            dravidian upper caste 3%, middle 18%, lower 10%
                            ie: upper c 4.5%, middle 8.3%, lower 2%

                            note that sample sizes for each group are relatively small, so the confidence intervals can be large.

                            cacio

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bob_chasm
                              My understanding is that in addition to significant numbers of J2a, 10% of muslims in UP India are E3b. However, E3b was absent among the Hindu population in the region. What is the significance of this E3b pressence?
                              While I am not sure where did the figure of 10% E3b come from, African-origin people, mostly converted to Muslim faith, are found in small numbers in the Indian states of Gujarat, Hyderabad and Uttar Pradesh (UP). All three states were ruled at one time or the other by Muslim rulers (Sultans, Nawabs/Nabobs) for whom it was fashionable to own a retinue of slaves...and, what better place than Africa to haul up these wretched servants. They are known as Siddis in India, while in Pakistan they are known as Sheedis. Ironically, the name is supposed to be a mark of respect, having been derived from Syed (Respectfully Sir!). In Pakistan E3b1, is the principal Haplogroup originating out of East Africa, occurring at 1% incidence, while E3a is found at 0.6%. As discussed in a different forum, the slave trade was sex-biased, with females being preferred over males (3:1) for domestic help, etc
                              Last edited by Kaiser; 3 July 2007, 10:07 PM.

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