Something is puzzling about Matches with Other Surnames

[Richard]

Something is puzzling me about matches with other surnames.
I get my Y chromosone from my father and he get his from his father and so on... And the purpose and point of the Y- DNA test is to see if you match other individuals with the same surname. So how can I match other males with a different surname? I mean after all I'm not from my mothers father or my grandmothers father and so on, but rather I am from my father and his father and so on... And no what I am saying is not a puzzle or a riddle to solve.
I just want to know about matches with other surnames.

[casadecoqui]

Re: Something is puzzling about Matches with Other Surnames

The reason might be because you share an ancestor before the advent of surnames which was several generations ago. If you are talking about matching many people at 12 markers then it might be prudent to have your yDNA refine to add the 13 markers and see if you still have as many matches with others with different surnames.

Regards,
Ana

Originally posted by Richard
Something is puzzling me about matches with other surnames.
I get my Y chromosone from my father and he get his from his father and so on... And the purpose and point of the Y- DNA test is to see if you match other individuals with the same surname. So how can I match other males with a different surname? I mean after all I'm not from my mothers father or my grandmothers father and so on, but rather I am from my father and his father and so on... And no what I am saying is not a puzzle or a riddle to solve.
I just want to know about matches with other surnames.

[Richard]

Ana, thank you for the response. However, if it indicates a match with a person before surnames then would good is that going to do any researcher? If you don't have a surname then how does one tell the connection? And has I pointed a Y-DNA test is suppose to determine a parental lineage. Whether it is 12, 25, 40 ,60 doesn't matter how many markers the test is still to determine parental lineage. For any male that is the purpose for taking the test. So if I and another individual match but we are from different surnames but don't know our surname then how do we tell which son belongs to which father. And some point an explanation of it all has to be a little more explanatory. I'm not trying to be anatagonist rather I'm just wanting a logical understanding of the dna testing.

[Jim Barrett]

The current issue of Family Tree DNA's newsletter "Facts and Genes" covers this question. You can read the article by going to http://www.familytreedna.com/facts_genes.asp .

[debh]

I agree with you, generally, Richard

that, particularly if you are a member of a very large haplogroup, it simply is not practical, IMO, to compare your results outside of your own surname (or variation of). Maybe 2000 years back you have a match, but realistically, how would you know who and how you are related that far back anyhow?
There is one situation where I have seen it make sense. If one is a member of a rare haplogroup, and the odds of others from that same area having related ancestors, comparing surname results might be a lead. This assumes, of course, that you know the names of the other surnames in question and have a way to get in touch with the participants.
As Jim mentioned, the article also discusses a couple of other instances. The other instances, though, also predicate knowing or at least having a theory that you *might* be related to some particular individual or surname based upon some narrowed evidence.
For me, this is precisely the value of having a particular surname project-BECAUSE one can gather and compare with others of the same surname (with variations) to narrow down origins. And why, again, IMO, rather than spend a lot of time trying to match the world, would be more worthwhile to find and encourage others of one's surname branch to participate.

[Richard]

Mr. Barrett and Debh,

I thank you very much for the replies. And I read the article suggested by Mr. Barrett and it is a good explanation for matches with other surnames. And I appreciate the support from Debh about comapring results before surnames. But I will forego any more conversation on the topic because something just still isn't right about having identical matches with someone of a different surname. I am reminded of sentence I read about Y-DNA tests and that is, "A person's paternal ancestry can be traced by DNA on the Y Chromosone or yDNA for short. Only men have a Y-Chromosone, which they inherited from their fathers and will pass on to their sons." And for my Y-Chromosone test to match identical with another individual of another surname, well, that just destroys the "inherited from their fathers and will pass on to their sons". And if that is the case then no one can really say this person is the father and that person is the son because their DNA matches.

[casadecoqui]

Re: I agree with you, generally, Richard

Dear Richard,

Deb and Jim are perfectly right. When I answered your question, I was assuming that you already were a part of a surname group. My mistake. I was only speaking to your question. By considering doing the other 13 markers, I was assuming that that might clarify issues in your own surname group and that there then might be fewer matches to all 25 markers with others with different surnames.

Ana

Originally posted by debh
that, particularly if you are a member of a very large haplogroup, it simply is not practical, IMO, to compare your results outside of your own surname (or variation of). Maybe 2000 years back you have a match, but realistically, how would you know who and how you are related that far back anyhow?
There is one situation where I have seen it make sense. If one is a member of a rare haplogroup, and the odds of others from that same area having related ancestors, comparing surname results might be a lead. This assumes, of course, that you know the names of the other surnames in question and have a way to get in touch with the participants.
As Jim mentioned, the article also discusses a couple of other instances. The other instances, though, also predicate knowing or at least having a theory that you *might* be related to some particular individual or surname based upon some narrowed evidence.
For me, this is precisely the value of having a particular surname project-BECAUSE one can gather and compare with others of the same surname (with variations) to narrow down origins. And why, again, IMO, rather than spend a lot of time trying to match the world, would be more worthwhile to find and encourage others of one's surname branch to participate.

[IZZY]

"And for my Y-Chromosone test to match identical with another individual of another surname, well, that just destroys the "inherited from their fathers and will pass on to their sons". And if that is the case then no one can really say this person is the father and that person is the son because their DNA matches."

Huh?

We are talking about specific quick mutation markers here. Not ALL the DNA will match...so paternity tests really do work.


What these matches mean is that somewhere somehow you share common ancestors with others who carry a diffrent name. Many names have been changed recently (think Ellis Island, fugitives, Aglicizing names etc.) and many family names are under the 1000 year mark in age. (How many Roman Family names servivied the Germanic invasions? Ever met anyone with the name FLAVIUS or RUFUS ????) How many Germans had family names outside of the clan leaders? Why do Mac DUFF (son of Duff) start to appear? (hint: Seems that Celts like Jews used to go by the Fathers name. )

How is this useful to you? I don't know. If you are the member of a larger family/Tribe/caste/nobility or social group...it may provide you with proof that you belong in that group.

Bill Clintons royal line was (re)etablished by his semen on a Blue dress. (Blue Blood...ha ha get it, I love Royal fun and Games!) and since has been listed in Burkes royal Peerage and Bartonage as a decendent of royal German (Frankish / Charlemane) blood.

Jewish Cohanim has been established as a group that have decended from one man. (whether Arron, Amram, Khath, or Levi).

If you are just looking for basic answers on your immediate family, like where they came from, what does my family name mean, and who was my great great grandpa, I think this is a great time to do important Preliminary research on the family history.

That way you may even be able to connect "lost dots" like when two villiage brothers received diffrent Surnames based on trade etc. (Think Baker vs. Smith).

[Richard]

Izzy, thanks for the reponse, however, that which I said that is in quotes is exactly correct. And as hard as one my try to explain that it is not correct, well, I am afraid that it can not be done. So that is why the topic is no longer worthy of discussion.

[Jim Barrett]

"A person's paternal ancestry can be traced by DNA on the Y Chromosone or yDNA for short. Only men have a Y-Chromosone, which they inherited from their fathers and will pass on to their sons."

Richard, you have taken a VERY small piece of the information that Family Tree DNA has provided us with and you seem to be trying to make some point out of that.

You seem to have ignored the many time FTDNA has told us that even if you have a 25/25 match and the same surname you may not be kin. You must also have the paper trail.

My personal opinion is that the real value in yDNA testing is that it can prove ALMOST without question that if you don't have a close match you are not kin through your male line.

yDNA testing is just one tool and it should be used that way.

[Richard]

Mr. Barrett, thanks for the response. No I do not blame FTDNA for anything, and I'm not trying to take a small piece of anything and making it in to a case. The folks at FTDNA have been professional in their approach and I commend them for that action. I believe that all I am doing is stating a fact, nothing more nothing less.

[wolfandclaw]

My husbands surname is Kimbley and most all of this surname goes back to one man in the late 1700's and everyone spells it exactly this way. That said, the original settler was from Germany and no one could understand him well so there was a final settlement on 'Kimbley' and no one knew this till some intensive genealogy work was done. He had the 25 marker yDNA test done not to find Kimbleys but to hopefully get a clue to what it was prior to the 1700's. This is an example of the concept in reverse to the one in this thread. ( no matches at all yet)

[Richard]

I don't know about that type of thing. I just know what is suppose to be scientific has alot of 'What if's'. And as Mr. Barrett stated:
"You seem to have ignored the many time FTDNA has told us that even if you have a 25/25 match and the same surname you may not be kin. You must also have the paper trail."
And that is a contradication to what is stated about matches for individuals.
I'm trying to be optimistic and positive about DNA testing but slowly and surely I'm finding that what is suppose to be a benefit to paper research is in fact more of a detriment to paper research. In other words, genealogy researchers will now have to establish two catagories in determining families, there will be a 'This is the family according to documents and records' and 'This is the family according to DNA testing'. Hopefully one day the two will indeed compliment each other and help genealogist develop families.

[csmaginnis]

Originally posted by Richard
Ana, thank you for the response. However, if it indicates a match with a person before surnames then would good is that going to do any researcher? If you don't have a surname then how does one tell the connection? And has I pointed a Y-DNA test is suppose to determine a parental lineage. Whether it is 12, 25, 40 ,60 doesn't matter how many markers the test is still to determine parental lineage. For any male that is the purpose for taking the test. So if I and another individual match but we are from different surnames but don't know our surname then how do we tell which son belongs to which father. And some point an explanation of it all has to be a little more explanatory. I'm not trying to be anatagonist rather I'm just wanting a logical understanding of the dna testing.

[csmaginnis]

Each additional marker increases the probability that you really have a perfect match. _Without the same surname, the percentage drops because some mutations accidentally produce the same Y DNA in more than one male in the 37 markers tested._ You will have to retest for 37 markers and hope there were no more than one mutation in either line for the last 400 years._ Since I am romantic rather than scientific, I am hopeful about this match since you both lack proof of the origins of your surname, do the same type of work, and have similar body traits and personalities._ I understand nothing of the mixed chromosomes that are also inherited from one’s father, but I assume that the matched traits imply that you both inherited some of the same mixed chromosomes from the male line.