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  • Indus Valley Civilization

    I wonder if people from this Indus Valley Civilization in what is now Pakistan from 3300-1700 BC later migrated to Europe:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilization

    My only autosomal DNA matches from DNA Tribes outside Europe was in Pakistan and Northern India:
    http://imajr.com/th/dnatribes_110771.jpg

    The so called Gundestrup cauldron found in Denmark and dated to the 2nd or 1st century BC featured a "horned god" that is suggested to have had its roots in the Indus Valley civilization:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gundestrup_cauldron
    Last edited by Eki; 11 June 2007, 04:28 AM.

  • #2
    Originally posted by Eki
    I wonder if people from this Indus Valley Civilization in what is now Pakistan from 3300-1700 BC later migrated to Europe:
    metrically they are, physical anthropologists say

    I wonder what were their Y-STRs, and would the Aryan Invasion Theory survive if it appears that microsatellites were the same as they are now.
    Last edited by vraatyah; 11 June 2007, 05:48 AM.

    Comment


    • #3
      It's hard to imagine which Y-SNP's could have been involved in such migration from Pakistan, unless it was some backmigration of J2 and R1a (and provided that R1a was already there in pre-Aryan times as claimed by Sengupta). My own haplogroup L has been linked to the Indus civilization, though the times don't really coincide. Some L is present in the Mediterranean, but it seems a slightly different subhaplogroup than that present in Pakistan.

      vraatyah:
      which antropometric evidence are you referring to? how can we distinguish it from other neolithic societies such as the middle east?
      (of course, once again, we can always explain links between N Europe and Pakistan by following Sengupta and assuming that R1a's had been in India for a while)

      cacio

      Comment


      • #4
        One of my top 20 matches from DNATRIBES is to Pakistan.
        My known ancestry is European.
        My top 20 has 4 non-European matches:
        Maputo, Mozambique
        Mozambique
        Pakistan
        Syria

        Those are in the top 10 of my top 20

        Here's a pic of me.

        http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/7...arly20sti2.jpg
        Last edited by rainbow; 12 June 2007, 09:54 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          My known ancestry is from a very small area of north-western europe. I can trace almost all of my ancestors to that area for at least 400 years. DNATribes still has my only strong match as Sikkim (Nepali or Indian). All of my results above 1.0 are from North India, Tibet or Asia Minor. I do not have a single european result!

          Fortunately some of my relatives have been tested as well for Y-DNA and mtDNA, otherwise I might have thought I was switched at birth. All of my other DNA results are strongly north-western european as expected given my known ancestry.

          I have been told that 2% of europeans receive strong asian results and that this is likely the result of ancient ties between the people of asia and europe as far back as 30,000 years ago.

          At least these results have energized my family who had become bored with the consistently north-western european results and hundreds of 12/12 Y-DNA matches. I now get emails attaching Sikkim pictures, music etc. and Brahmin inspirational quotes My wife has also suggested that I owe my long-lost relatives a visit.

          John

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          • #6
            Vraatyah:
            I wonder what were their Y-STRs, and would the Aryan Invasion Theory survive if it appears that microsatellites were the same as they are now.
            If I know correctly, most of the mainstream Indologists (Michael Witzel, Romilla Thapar etc...) talk about Aryan Migration and not Aryan Invasion. Do you know any mainstream Indologists still clinging onto Aryan Invasion Theory?

            Let us say IE speakers were migrating to that region when the civilization was still alive then how easy it would be to separate those skeletons. I guess Aryan migration theorists still have this point to counter.

            Comment


            • #7
              [QUOTE=rainbow]One of my top 20 matches from DNATRIBES is to Pakistan.
              My known ancestry is European.
              My top 20 has 4 non-European matches:
              Maputo, Mozambique
              Mozambique
              Pakistan
              Syria

              Those are in the top 10 of my top 20

              The Mozambique match must be just Portuguese, especially since you also match the capital Maputo.

              Pakistan's population reflects migration from the Middle East, so the Syria and Pakistan match could be the same line of your background. Especially if the men in your family have J2 Y-DNA.

              Jim
              not an expert

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by father_R2
                Do you know any mainstream Indologists still clinging onto Aryan Invasion Theory?
                No such scientists, I agree. I mistakenly chose that word instead of "migration". The presence of "more western" gene pool in India is firmly proven (for instance, the Neolithic attribution of some mt and Y alleles) while the origin of R1a is still an open problem; which events can be reconstructed if we deliberately limit the set of markers to Y only - that was my point (or rather a question). btw, despite of my referencing to the morphological similarity between pre-aryan and aryan W.India, you chose another interpretation than I meant. Perhaps, the reason is my bad English - in Russian, the Latin word related to "invasion" is more close to the "penetration" in meaning.

                Cacio:
                my source is Abdushelishvili reports and books in Russian. I'm sure there are tons of online publications, especially because some kind of continuity between the pre-Aryan and contemporary civilizations is a widely discussed topic.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck
                  Originally posted by rainbow
                  One of my top 20 matches from DNATRIBES is to Pakistan.
                  My known ancestry is European.
                  My top 20 has 4 non-European matches:
                  Maputo, Mozambique
                  Mozambique
                  Pakistan
                  Syria

                  Those are in the top 10 of my top 20
                  The Mozambique match must be just Portuguese, especially since you also match the capital Maputo.

                  Pakistan's population reflects migration from the Middle East, so the Syria and Pakistan match could be the same line of your background. Especially if the men in your family have J2 Y-DNA.

                  Jim
                  not an expert
                  In emails back & forth from DNATRIBES, they said I definitely have African. My extended report gives me oodles of more African matches, including Zulu.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by rainbow
                    One of my top 20 matches from DNATRIBES is to Pakistan.
                    My known ancestry is European.
                    My top 20 has 4 non-European matches:
                    Maputo, Mozambique
                    Mozambique
                    Pakistan
                    Syria
                    rainbow: The coastal areas of Pakistan have a small African population known as 'sheedis', the mostly the progeny of slaves/concubines brought in by Omani rulers under whose suzerainty lay a Pakistani District of Gwadar from early 19th century till 1957. The y-DNA Haplogroup amongst the 'Sheedis' is E3 while the mtDNA Haplogroup of these Africans is L3 and the particular haplotypes are found mainly in Mozambique. So are we talking of a Portuguese-Mozambiquan-Pakistani linkage in your genes?

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rainbow
                      In emails back & forth from DNATRIBES, they said I definitely have African. My extended report gives me oodles of more African matches, including Zulu.
                      Earlier versions of DNATribes gave me top matches with South Asian Indians. Now those matches have all but disappeared, and my top matches are with Australian Aborigines.

                      If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

                      The European matches of my DNATribes result look valid. I'm only paying attention to those.

                      DNATribes is a really interesting test, but it can be hard to interpret.

                      Jim

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck
                        Earlier versions of DNATribes gave me top matches with South Asian Indians. Now those matches have all but disappeared, and my top matches are with Australian Aborigines.

                        If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

                        The European matches of my DNATribes result look valid. I'm only paying attention to those.

                        DNATribes is a really interesting test, but it can be hard to interpret.

                        Jim
                        My report matches me to Australian Aborigines also. And Maori & West Polynesian, in the Pacific Ocean. And Canary Islands, & Cape Verde Islands in the Atlantic Ocean.
                        Since this test includes all genes from many thousands of years, this must be from ancient trade/travel. The Zulu must have been picked up by traveling Ancient Greeks or Romans or Phoenicians, who sailed around Cape Hope, Africa.
                        Last edited by rainbow; 14 June 2007, 03:29 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Kaiser
                          rainbow: The coastal areas of Pakistan have a small African population known as 'sheedis', the mostly the progeny of slaves/concubines brought in by Omani rulers under whose suzerainty lay a Pakistani District of Gwadar from early 19th century till 1957. The y-DNA Haplogroup amongst the 'Sheedis' is E3 while the mtDNA Haplogroup of these Africans is L3 and the particular haplotypes are found mainly in Mozambique. So are we talking of a Portuguese-Mozambiquan-Pakistani linkage in your genes?
                          From early 19th century? Not possible in my case.
                          If the test is from my swabs, and is correct, then the only explanation is that they're picking up very ancient genes, and I must be descended from people who traveled all over the place. I have a lot of unusual matches from places far apart from each other.
                          I had read that most people of the British Isles get Portugal (Iberian) as their top match because they came from the Iberian Peninsula thousands of years ago. To me, the Portugal match just represents British.

                          I was very surprised to see my chart from DNATRIBES, with no dots in the Americas, and two yellow dots in Mozambique, Africa.
                          Last edited by rainbow; 14 June 2007, 03:46 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by rainbow
                            My report matches me to Australian Aborigines also. And Maori & West Polynesian, in the Pacific Ocean. And Canary Islands, & Cape Verde Islands in the Atlantic Ocean.
                            Since this test includes all genes from many thousands of years, this must be from ancient trade/travel. The Zulu must have been picked up by traveling Ancient Greeks or Romans or Phoenicians, who sailed around Cape Hope, Africa.
                            The other explanation is that for many people the autosomal results do not accurately reflect their ancestry. Perhaps as more people are tested, this will change in the future. Too many people are trying to find elaborate ways to "explain" their results given their known heritage.

                            John

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Johnserrat
                              The other explanation is that for many people the autosomal results do not accurately reflect their ancestry. Perhaps as more people are tested, this will change in the future. Too many people are trying to find elaborate ways to "explain" their results given their known heritage.

                              John
                              The test from DNATRIBES is for DEEP ancestry, not just the last 500 years, as with AncestryByDna.

                              Either the tests are wrong, or they are right. If they are right, then peoples ideas of what they are are wrong. If everyone stood in just one place for 30,000 years, the world wouldn't have been populated.

                              I also match the 'Uyghur II' group from Xinxiang, China. I think the Silk Road went past there, didn't it?

                              Comment

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