Italian results

[Donna_Q]

Hi,

My known ancestry is English, Northern Irish, German, Dutch, and possibly Cherokee and Creek. My ancestors arrived fairly early and were in Va., Carolinas (especially the mtns.) and most were settled in Alabama by the early 1800's. I ordered the DNA Tribes test and NA panel, and my top 6 World Region Match results were:
India 10.64
Arabian 9.57
Asia Minor 8.96 N.
Africa 8.55
Med. 4.58

NA Panel: chol maya: 0.0012

ENFSI: (all are E-11)
Italy 6.6943
Belgium 5.0979
Germany 4.8103
Eng/Wales 3.9260
Poland 3.6684
Czech 3.4869
Estonia 3.4828
No. Ire. 3.3428
Croatia 3.0682
Netherlands 3.0668

What confuses me is the AMOUNT of Italian. Does that mean it is recent? Italians did come to Alabama to work in the coal industry, and I do have some relatives that were coal miners. But that would have been in the 20th century. I can't place who this could be. Any other possibilities?
Thanks,
Donna

[Jim Honeychuck]

Donna,

My understanding is that at the DNA level, the modern population of Italy is two distinct populations, north and south, and that the northerners are basically the same as southern Germans.

On the DNA Tribes test, I got strong matches to northern Italy, and I have no Italian ancestry. I assume the connection is ancient.

I don't know about ENFSI. Is there a description of the population sample for that data?

Jim

[Donna_Q]

Hi Jim,

ENFSI didnt specify, but Tribes Native pop. match is 8.3 for Puglia, Italy which is in the south on the Adriatic. Possibly more to do with the Croatia match, than actual Italian. My mother has/had black hair and somewhat olive skin, but if you ask, she only claims Irish. Although one of her cousins "admits to" Cherokee. My father's mother's parents were first cousins. Wonder what that does to DNA? It's my uneducated guess that my eastern european matches are related to my German (non-Bavarian?) lines. Anyone of another opinion?
Thanks,
Donna

[vineviz]

My understanding is that at the DNA level, the modern population of Italy is two distinct populations, north and south, and that the northerners are basically the same as southern Germans.

It is true in the north of Italy, the population of Italy more closely resembles that of continental Europe. However, there is no really "distinct" population in Italy: a variety of forces blend and meld the population throughout the peninsula.

OmniPop and ENFSI are not very precise or accurate tools for estimating the heritage of someone with mixed ancestry. Most likely, the Italy matches are picking up some mix of European and Native American heritage. The Native American heritage is being confused with Asian, and Eastern European populations are therefore showing up in your results.

[tomcat]

...
My known ancestry is English, Northern Irish, German, Dutch, and possibly Cherokee and Creek.
...

ENFSI: (all are E-11)
Italy 6.6943
Belgium 5.0979
Germany 4.8103
Eng/Wales 3.9260
Poland 3.6684
Czech 3.4869
Estonia 3.4828
No. Ire. 3.3428
Croatia 3.0682
Netherlands 3.0668

What confuses me is the AMOUNT of Italian.
...

Your match-scores for Italian do not indicate an 'amount' as the profile-matching statistics of Tribes, ENFSI and Omnipop do not measure admixture. The match-scores simply express a statistical likelihood of one's allelic profile matching the allelic profile of the named population. It is quite possible for one's allelic profile to match populations with which one has no immediate ancestry.

Italy is a genetically complex country and many people with no Italian ancestry pull matches to Italy.

Leaving aside the Italian match, the next three matches conform well to your known genealogy.

[tomcat]

...
ENFSI: (all are E-11)
Italy 6.6943
Belgium 5.0979
Germany 4.8103
Eng/Wales 3.9260
Poland 3.6684
Czech 3.4869
Estonia 3.4828
No. Ire. 3.3428
Croatia 3.0682
Netherlands 3.0668
...

For whatever it is worth, I find some interesting 'pattern' in your list of matches. At the 3.06 level you match equally to Croatia and Netherlands, poles on a line that spans the subcontinent from the northwest to the southeast and the next best match, to No. Ireland, seems an extension of that line. And at the 3.48 level you match equally to Estonia and Czech Rep. that lay on a narrowly northeast-southwest line. And your next best match is to Poland that lies between them!

At the next level the pattern of matches oscillates between the west and east. (I'm still ignoring Italy although a southerly extension of the Estonia-Czech line runs to Italy and that extension crosses the Croatia-Netherlands line very near northern Italy).

[Jambalaia32]

Hi Jim,

ENFSI didnt specify, but Tribes Native pop. match is 8.3 for Puglia, Italy which is in the south on the Adriatic. Possibly more to do with the Croatia match, than actual Italian. My mother has/had black hair and somewhat olive skin, but if you ask, she only claims Irish. Although one of her cousins "admits to" Cherokee. My father's mother's parents were first cousins. Wonder what that does to DNA? It's my uneducated guess that my eastern european matches are related to my German (non-Bavarian?) lines. Anyone of another opinion?
Thanks,
Donna

Does your Mother know what her genes are? I mean lots of people don't know what's in their ancestry-esp. if it's only a little bit and not worth overturning governments over.Only DNA testing allows you to see your genes-other than that you'd never know about all the little parts,or know exact names,places,and tribes-if I knew all that I wouldn't have to get DNA tested in the first place.I just know I'm here,but nothing else is really written down on paper,or taught to us formally.Maybe one day you can meet some Italian matches-to me Italians claim you're Italian ,but never prove it.Maybe it's their fault.

[Donna_Q]

thanks for the replies.
Tomcat, do you think there is any significance to the patterns?
Jambalaia, I have always been told about Cherokee blood on my mothers side. But you have to remember that to be known to be Indian meant a one way ticket to Oklahoma!

[tomcat]

thanks for the replies.
Tomcat, do you think there is any significance to the patterns?

Oh, I dunno.

[tomcat]

...Tomcat, do you think there is any significance to the patterns?...

There may be some equivalence or affinity between 'Celtic' and 'Balkan' ...
See the 'Tribes scores' thread.

[dnaquestioner]

Questions on estimating ancestry

My full-sibling and I are attempting to determine our paternal ethnic ancestry. Our maternal grandparents were immigrants from one of each: Austro-Hungary (borderland between the two), N. Germany, Norway and England. Our paternal great-grandparents were also immigrants, but we do not know from where. Considering this, what could be elucidated from our results? Can anything in Europe be ruled out?

My Sibling's scores were:
Locus Allele 1 Allele 2
D3S1358 16 17
TH01 6 8
D21S11 29 32.2
D18S51 12 15
D5S818 11 13
D13S317 12 12
D7S820 11 13
D16S539 11 12
CSF1PO 11 12
vWA 16 18
D8S1179 10 13
TPOX 8 9
FGA 22 23


Part B: High Resolution Native Population Match
Lazio Italy 62.5
Kesra, Berber:61.2
Northern Arab: 33.7
Kurdish (N. Iraq) 26.7
Minorca, Spain: 25.1
Italy:22.8
Central and Southern Iraq:19.8
Bangladeshi: (Dhaka, Bangladesh) 19.6
Mozabite (Algeria) 19.0
Northern Greece 17.4
Sicily, Italy 17.3
Greek Cypriot: 15.8
Greece: 14.8
Emilia-Romagna, Italy: 14.7
Pakistan: 14.7
Lombardia, Italy: 13.8
Italy: 12.9
Eastern Anatolia, Turkey: 12.7
Piemonte, Italy: 12.5
Tanjore Kallar (Tamil Nadu, India) 12.4


Part C: High Resolution Global Population Match
Lazio, Italy: 62.5
Kesra Berber (Centra Tunisia): 61.2
Northern Arab: 33.7
Kurdish (N. Iraq): 26.7
Minorca Spain: 25.1
Italy: 22.8
Central and Southern Iraq: 19.8
Bangladeshi (Dhaka, Bangladesh): 19.6
Mozabite (Algeria): 19.0
Caucasian (Northern Territory, Australia): 17.5
Northern Greece: 17.4
Sicily Italy: 17.3
Greek Cypriot: 15.8
Canary Islands: 15.7
Greece: 14.8
Emilia-Romagna, Italy: 14.7
Pakistan: 14.7
Lombardia, Italy: 13.8
Italy: 12.9
Eastern Anatolia, Turkey: 12.7

Part D: High Resolution World Region Match
(In Reverse Order)
0.02 India Tribal
0.02 Polynesian
0.03 Australian
0.06 North India
0.11 Chinese
0.15 Central Amer Indian
0.17 Mongolian
0.18 Tibetan
0.28 Malay Archipelago
0.50 Southeast Asian
0.58 Japanese
0.75 Finno Ugrian
0.90 Eastern European
1.50 Meztizo
1.67 N. African
4.31 NW Euro
6.21 India
7.67 Mediterranean
9.32 Asia Minor
20.36 Arabian

And EURO STR Scores:
1) Italy
2) Belgium
3) Denmark
4) France (Lille)
5) Austria
6.) N. Ireland
7) Czech Republic
8) Scottland, Glasgow
9) Spain
10) Switzerland
11) Ireland
12) Slovenia
13) Estonia

My Own:
Locus Allele 1 Allele 2
D3S1358 16 17
TH01 8 9.3
D21S11 29 32.2
D18S51 15 15
D5S818 11 13
D13S317 12 12
D7S820 11 13
D16S539 11 12
CSF1PO 11 13
vWA 17 18
D8S1179 10 13
TPOX 8 8
FGA 20 22

Part B: High Resolution Native Population Match
Minorca Spain: 132.2
Basque (Vizcaya, Spain): 127.5
Tunisian: 97.1
Italian: 74.2
Basque (Alava Spain): 68.1
Germany: 55.2
Belgium: 49.8
Ashkenazi (Budapest, Hungary):49.1
North Bavaria, Germany: 49.0
Northern Arab: 44.5
Emilia-Romagna, Italy:43.6
Northern Greek: 35.6
Strathclyde, Scotland: 33.3
Switzerland: 31.8
Flemish: 30.6
Flemish (Belgium) 30.4
Vienna, Austria: 29.8
Basque (Basque County, Spain): 29.7
Greek: 28.6
Northern Ireland: 26.7

Part C: High Resolution Global Population Match
Minorca Spain: 132.2
Basque (Vizcaya, Spain) 127.5
Tunisian: 97.1
Italian: 74.2
Caucasian: 70.2
Basque (alava Spain): 68.1
Caucasian (Northern Territory Australia): 58.1
Caucasian (Canada) 56.7
Germany 55.2
Belgium: 49.8
Caucasian: 49.7
Ashkenazi (Budapest Hungary): 49.1
North Bavaria Germany: 49.0
Caucasian: 44.8
Northern Arab: 44.5
Emilia-Romagna, Italy: 43.6
Caucasian (Canada)41.6
Caucasian (Capitol Territory, Australia):39.0
Caucasian (Florida, USA) 38.4
Caucasian (New York, USA) 36.5

Part D: High Resolution World Region Match
(In reverse order)
Sub-Saharan Africa: 0.02
North India: 0.04
South Amerindian: 0.05
Polynesian: 0.07
India Tribal: 0.09
Sino-Tibetan: 0.11
Malay Archipelago: 0.33
Japanese: 0.34
Southeast Asian: 0.38
Arabian: 0.48
N. African: 0.66
Mestizo:1.14
Finno-Ugrian: 2.40
India: 2.83
Asian Minor: 4.90
Mongolian: 5.09
E. Europe:8.78
Mediterranean: 9.81
NW European:14.21

My EURO STR:
1) Czech
2) Italy
3) Slovenia
4) Belgium
5) Denmark
6) N. Ireland
7) Sweden
8) Ireland
9) Germany
10) Coratia
11) Poland
12) France/ Lille
13) Scotland, Glasgow

[Kathleen Carrow]

Well of course Italy springs to mind for more than one reason including your posting to this thread..
Any clues? Names?Time of immigration( 2nd wave?)What did their descendants look like if you ever saw any pictures? Customs and foods?
How did the family describe themselves in their orgin story ?

My family of origin comes shortly after the Famine and we are always told we are " 100 % Irish"..which we are not...but other things like holidays celebrated, churches attended( or avoided) how they talked about other peoples cultures.. all give big clues..

[dnaquestioner]

Very little is known. One thing for sure is that all immigrated between 1910 and 1940. The most likely possible paternal pairs include:

One Slovenian and One Italian and One Italian and One Slovenian
or
Two Croatians and Two Italians
or
Two British and Two Irish.

Since all of our known great-grandparents are also immigrants, we thought this test would be easier to interpret. However, we have heard things come up like Basque is related to Irish or Celts to the Balkans.

My sibling does have much Arab and Indian, and I have related things popping up that I wouldn't have guessed. This lead to us thinking that this could lead more toward Mediterranian background and hence Italian, however, could these things come up instead of Irish/British? It is confusing.

[Kathleen Carrow]

The first and second scenario sound plausable, as well as the immigration time..and if they intermarry and emigrate the same time makes even more sense..

But Celtic origins of many Irish ( my own included) could show as Mediterranean..
My own husband, whose parents emigrated here to US in 1930s from Scotland where they had lived for centuries, just had Italy as his highest autosomal match.

[dnaquestioner]

Thanks.
Does "showing as Mediterranian" include having things like Arab, etc, come up strongly?

Do Celtic/Irish/Scottish/British people usually also have many of the other populations relevant to the Mediterranian come up as well without the other relevant populations to the Celtic regions/British Isles? Does the fact that we have things like Greek, Northern Arab, and many other populations potentially related to N. Africa like Berbers (without as many things like Norway, Ireland, etc, France,) mean anything or are they also simply mistakable for Celts?

It is confusing to think that everything that would come up could be masked identities of Celts. It makes the test very difficult to interpret.

Thanks again.