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  • #31
    mu01dr:

    I don't think the paper distinguishes any H subclades, they only analyze HVR1 and 2, which is not enough to determine H subhaplogroups. There is a companion file online which has the HVR1+2 of the Arabian peninsula sample, so may be you can check if there's any match there. However, the paper makes it clear that the Arabic peninsula has been a recipient rather than a source of mtdna haplogroups - so any H in Arabia must have come from the north.

    I think H is perhaps the most frequent haplogroup in N Africa, even more so that the more ancient, typical U6 and M1. However, I have never seen any study on the source of H in N Africa. Perhaps they came from the Levant middle East- who knows. Since there aren't very many people who have tested from there, perhaps you won't see matches anyway.

    cacio

    Comment


    • #32
      mu01dr:

      I don't think the paper distinguishes any H subclade, they only analyze HVR1 and 2, which is not enough to determine H subhaplogroups. There is a companion file online which has the HVR1+2 of the Arabian peninsula sample, so may be you can check if there's any match there. However, the paper makes it clear that the Arabic peninsula has been a recipient rather than a source of mtdna haplogroups - so any H in Arabia must have come from the north.

      I think H is perhaps the most frequent haplogroup in N Africa, even more so that the more ancient, typical U6 and M1. However, I have never seen any study on the source of H in N Africa. Perhaps they came from the Levant middle East- who knows. Since there aren't very many people who have tested from there, perhaps you won't see matches anyway.

      cacio

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by cacio
        mu01dr:

        I don't think the paper distinguishes any H subclade, they only analyze HVR1 and 2, which is not enough to determine H subhaplogroups. There is a companion file online which has the HVR1+2 of the Arabian peninsula sample, so may be you can check if there's any match there. However, the paper makes it clear that the Arabic peninsula has been a recipient rather than a source of mtdna haplogroups - so any H in Arabia must have come from the north.

        I think H is perhaps the most frequent haplogroup in N Africa, even more so that the more ancient, typical U6 and M1. However, I have never seen any study on the source of H in N Africa. Perhaps they came from the Levant middle East- who knows. Since there aren't very many people who have tested from there, perhaps you won't see matches anyway.

        cacio
        Thank you for your input cacio

        Maybe I am having a look at the wrong document but in the following excel spreadsheet, you can find H but also H2a1, H6 and H20 .
        http://www.biomedcentral.com/imedia/...0256/supp1.xls
        http://www.biomedcentral.com/imedia/...0255/supp2.xls

        No 261T mutation reported in the HVR1 for the H results.

        Comment


        • #34
          mu01dr:

          Presumably, H2a1, H6 and H20 can be determined by HVR1 and 2 alone. I don't know for H20, but this seems to be the case for H6 with 16362 and 16482:
          http://www.familytreedna.com/hclade.html
          and I believe H2a1 has 16354

          In the previous link, you'll see that most other subclades are determined by coding region mutations, 4793 in the case of H7, so they cannot be determined in this file.

          Have you looked at the two papers on haplogroup H in Europe and in the Near East, the Loogvali and the Roostalu? I haven't looked at the papers much and I don't know if they have an associated database, but I guess H7's origins are more likely to be found in the near east or europe rather than arabia.

          cacio

          Comment


          • #35
            Sad news

            Shabani passed away, according to AP.

            bob

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by bob_chasm
              Shabani passed away, according to AP.

              bob
              Peace be upon him and the mercy and blessings of God.

              Comment


              • #37
                On his blog, dienekes talks about a paper by Abu Amero on Saudi Y (finally somebody did it):

                http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/09...di-arabia.html

                among the main points, a certain diversity of Y in Saudi Arabia (more than expected). J1 is indeed the largest haplogroup among Saudi males, but its frequency is not as high as elsewhere (about 40%, which means that 60% belong to other haplogroups).

                From the paper:
                The most abundant haplogroups in Saudi Arabia, J1-M267 (42%), J2-M172 (14%), E1-M2 (8%), R1-M17 (5%) and K2-M184 (5%) are also well represented in other Arabian populations

                cacio

                Comment


                • #38
                  Formats of "paper" genealogy in Arabia?

                  Originally posted by cacio View Post
                  On his blog, dienekes talks about a paper by Abu Amero on Saudi Y (finally somebody did it):

                  http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/09...di-arabia.html

                  among the main points, a certain diversity of Y in Saudi Arabia (more than expected). J1 is indeed the largest haplogroup among Saudi males, but its frequency is not as high as elsewhere (about 40%, which means that 60% belong to other haplogroups).

                  From the paper:
                  The most abundant haplogroups in Saudi Arabia, J1-M267 (42%), J2-M172 (14%), E1-M2 (8%), R1-M17 (5%) and K2-M184 (5%) are also well represented in other Arabian populations

                  cacio
                  Interesting data!
                  Given the present reluctance to submit to Y-dna testing in Arabia, one is curious as to in what format the (putatively threatened) ancient existing genealogy has been preserved? Paper, parchment registries? Guzlars?
                  Any information ?

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by cacio View Post
                    On his blog, dienekes talks about a paper by Abu Amero on Saudi Y (finally somebody did it):

                    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/09...di-arabia.html

                    among the main points, a certain diversity of Y in Saudi Arabia (more than expected). J1 is indeed the largest haplogroup among Saudi males, but its frequency is not as high as elsewhere (about 40%, which means that 60% belong to other haplogroups).

                    From the paper:
                    The most abundant haplogroups in Saudi Arabia, J1-M267 (42%), J2-M172 (14%), E1-M2 (8%), R1-M17 (5%) and K2-M184 (5%) are also well represented in other Arabian populations

                    cacio
                    I wonder what this distribution suggests about the haplogroup identity of the prophet Muhammad? Also, I wonder if there were any significant differences between the Shia and Sunni populations in Saudi Arabia.

                    I would also be curious to know the haplogroup identity of the ruling Saud family.

                    bob

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Unfortunately, the paper doesn't break down the results by region, so we don't know whether some regions (say the Hijaz) have more of some haplogroups. We know the distribution in neighboring countries (Yemen, Oman, UAE) from other papers. Yemen has more J1 (I think up to 70%). UAE has more of the indo-iranian haplogroups. But I don't think this can be taken to mean anything about different regions in SA.

                      cacio

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by cacio View Post
                        Unfortunately, the paper doesn't break down the results by region, so we don't know whether some regions (say the Hijaz) have more of some haplogroups. We know the distribution in neighboring countries (Yemen, Oman, UAE) from other papers. Yemen has more J1 (I think up to 70%). UAE has more of the indo-iranian haplogroups. But I don't think this can be taken to mean anything about different regions in SA.

                        cacio
                        I would not be surprized if some day it is discovered that a signifcant portion of the J1 population in Saudi Arabia descends from Yemenites who migrated to SA about 1500 years ago. If memory serves me right, a large portion of the Yemenite population migrated to areas in Saudi Arabia around the time Muhammad was born (560/570CE). I believe the exodus from Yemen was the result of some catastrophic Tsunami/ floods which destroyed the Marib Dam and created food shortages and famines in the region. In addition, I think the plague had crossed from East Africa into Yemen at the time too.

                        bob

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          genealogy

                          Originally posted by derinos View Post
                          Interesting data!
                          Given the present reluctance to submit to Y-dna testing in Arabia, one is curious as to in what format the (putatively threatened) ancient existing genealogy has been preserved? Paper, parchment registries? Guzlars?
                          Any information ?
                          Since Muhammad, the prophet was from Mecca/ Madina in Saudi Arabia, dna testing could expose posers who claim descent from his family. I think we see a similar problem with Cohens in Judaism. For example, if all Cohens were descendants of a single man (Aaron) who lived 2,500 to 3,000 ybp, they would all share a single haplogroup subclade. However, the reality is quite different. I think the Saudis are afraid a similar truth may expose that Arabs have not been able to guard the truth about how they are related to the prophet. The fear is, if people lose faith in their ability to tell the truth about how they are related to Muhammad, then people may also lose faith in their ability to tell the truth about what Muhammad said -fundamentalist Islam.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by bob_chasm View Post
                            Since Muhammad, the prophet was from Mecca/ Madina in Saudi Arabia, dna testing could expose posers who claim descent from his family.
                            yes it was the target of the sharifs project specially for north africans, where the numbers of sharifs is clearly overspread.

                            Originally posted by bob_chasm View Post
                            The fear is, if people lose faith in their ability to tell the truth about how they are related to Muhammad, then people may also lose faith in their ability to tell the truth about what Muhammad said -fundamentalist Islam.
                            I think the problem is different, the coran has been written, few decades after the death of the prophet, so there is no reason to question its legitimacy.

                            Comment

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