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  • Arabian peninsula

    I was browsing dienekes's blog and noticed a (freely available) paper on the mtdna in Saudi Arabia:
    http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2007/03...-arabians.html

    Nothing particularly surprising in the paper, other than there are less African L lineages than expected (ie less than in Yemen or N Africa). Many R0a (formerly pre-HV), and a vast assortment of west eurasian haplogroups. The paper has a sample of 120 men. Of course, this clearly points to a potential companion paper on the Y chromosome, which would be quite interesting. Though I wonder whether it will be done, or whether political consideration will prevent it.

    Anyway, I was wondering if anybody has information on or has been looking at what ysearch etc. is discovering about the Y chromosome of the Arabian peninsula. Solid J1, or some other pattern?

    cacio

  • #2
    What a moving article

    I started the article and thought cynically, "Well, of course this article isn't going to cite someone like Michael Hammer or talk about the relationship between Jews and Arabs, because science is small and hatred is big."

    But I was completely wrong. The authors of the paper include sources Israeli and Jewish researchers such as Hammer and Bonne-Tamir in their list of citations, and they say flat out that the results appear to support the idea that Jewish groups "usually harbor chromosome Y and mtDNA lineages that permit their most probable origin to be traced to the Near East because
    they share the most common haplotypes with those populations."

    In other words, the authors are open to the possibility that, to some extent, some Jews really do descend from people from Israel.

    The paper basically reaffirms the idea that Jews and Arabs are, in effect, the children of some ancient Y chromosome Noah and his ancient mitowife.

    Just the fact that the authors of the Saudi paper are even willing to consider this idea in a fair, data-oriented way makes me think there is still some hope we will make through this time of troubles.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by cacio
      I was browsing dienekes's blog and noticed a (freely available) paper on the mtdna in Saudi Arabia:
      http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2007/03...-arabians.html

      Nothing particularly surprising in the paper, other than there are less African L lineages than expected (ie less than in Yemen or N Africa). Many R0a (formerly pre-HV), and a vast assortment of west eurasian haplogroups. The paper has a sample of 120 men. Of course, this clearly points to a potential companion paper on the Y chromosome, which would be quite interesting. Though I wonder whether it will be done, or whether political consideration will prevent it.

      Anyway, I was wondering if anybody has information on or has been looking at what ysearch etc. is discovering about the Y chromosome of the Arabian peninsula. Solid J1, or some other pattern?

      cacio
      I knew this already.

      While in Western Culture, it's common to make everyone in the Arabian Peninsula as looking like they're from Sub-Saharian Africa (even in the movie "300" they put a bunch of emissaries as looking like they were from the Congo), but they're highly Caucasian, if you simply look at them.

      They've just got a mildly darker skin tone.

      Anyway, i'll readdres this when I take my tests, since i'm Sicilian and therefore have Arabic DNA in me.

      Comment


      • #4
        jr76x:

        the "as expected" referred to the fact that Yemen has a higher fraction of L mtdna lineages, so one could have expected Saudi Arabia to be in line with Yemen. A previous paper on Yemen did indeed stress the fact that there was a lot of African mtdna down there, and compared this instead to the much smaller fraction of African Y chromosome lineages.

        You should really take a mtdna test as well. Sicily I think is close to the rest of Italy in terms of mtdna, but I don't think this has been studied as much as for the Y chromosome. The fraction of L lineages in Italy should be small, around 1% or so.

        cacio

        Comment


        • #5
          genetic peace

          Originally posted by allbell
          I started the article and thought cynically, "Well, of course this article isn't going to cite someone like Michael Hammer or talk about the relationship between Jews and Arabs, because science is small and hatred is big."

          But I was completely wrong. The authors of the paper include sources Israeli and Jewish researchers such as Hammer and Bonne-Tamir in their list of citations, and they say flat out that the results appear to support the idea that Jewish groups "usually harbor chromosome Y and mtDNA lineages that permit their most probable origin to be traced to the Near East because
          they share the most common haplotypes with those populations."

          In other words, the authors are open to the possibility that, to some extent, some Jews really do descend from people from Israel.

          The paper basically reaffirms the idea that Jews and Arabs are, in effect, the children of some ancient Y chromosome Noah and his ancient mitowife.

          Just the fact that the authors of the Saudi paper are even willing to consider this idea in a fair, data-oriented way makes me think there is still some hope we will make through this time of troubles.

          I am somewhat optimistic that eventually, the Jews and Arabs will patch things up. I think genetics will help. I also think Arab objection to the creation of a Jewish State had more to do with cultural differences between a Europeanized/ westernized population and Middle Easterners than with genetics. In my experience, I have yet to see any example from human history in which a religiously and culturally different people have taken political control in a very short period of time, without causing intense violent reaction from the native population. I dont think that even Europeans would accept a billion Americans "returning" to Europe in 1500 years, to take political control of a remote patch of land in Europe, just because they know they share some common ancestor. Especially if Europe, for example was predominantly Hindu at the time and Americans were mostly Mormon by then.


          regards,

          bob
          Last edited by bob_chasm; 23 March 2007, 09:57 AM.

          Comment


          • #6
            You might find the following URL useful:

            http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...uladnaproject/

            Comment


            • #7
              Mythology transplant needed?

              Originally posted by bob_chasm
              I am somewhat optimistic that eventually, the Jews and Arabs will patch things up. I think genetics will help. I also think Arab objection to the creation of a Jewish State had more to do with cultural differences between a Europeanized/ westernized population and Middle Easterners than with genetics. In my experience, I have yet to see any example from human history in which a religiously and culturally different people have taken political control in a very short period of time, without causing intense violent reaction from the native population. I dont think that even Europeans would accept a billion Americans "returning" to Europe in 1500 years, to take political control of a remote patch of land in Europe, just because they know they share some common ancestor. Especially if Europe, for example was predominantly Hindu at the time and Americans were mostly Mormon by then.


              regards,

              bob
              Cultural differences, yes indeed; the greatest being chained to using the Old Testament as the instruction book on neighborhood relations.
              Let's develop your ingenious analogy further. What if the "billion Americans" took possession of an area already fully populated (by the standards of local ecology), shot their way in without conceding or negotiating, and when morally challenged, produced 4000 year old mythology, written by themselves, as immovable justification for all future behavior.
              Maybe brain transplants; or, anyway mythology transplants, would help? Takes me back to Eminent Domain. Pessimism is sometimes warranted. Do Google the *Balfour Declaration*.

              Comment


              • #8
                Tamimi:

                thanks for the link. So it seems that the project so far is showing a very homogeneous and a very solid J1. Just a little sprinkle of J2, and a couple of odd ones (a G, C, apparently an unassigned E3b). The only published study on the area (on Oman) showed a lot of J1 and 2, but also a variety of other haplogroups. It seems then that the pattern of Oman is not repeated in the rest of Arabia, and thus that the Omani non-J may represent admixtures due to the Omani sea commerce.

                The C 77389 is quite intriguing. Do we have any information about him? I cannot recognize different varieties of C. Would he be a Turkic C, or an indian C, or something else? C in Arabia would of course be of great interest - in case he were a remnant of the out of African migration. The study on Oman shows two C's - but it doesn't say whether they are a migration from S India or something else.

                cacio

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by derinos
                  Cultural differences, yes indeed; the greatest being chained to using the Old Testament as the instruction book on neighborhood relations.
                  Let's develop your ingenious analogy further. What if the "billion Americans" took possession of an area already fully populated (by the standards of local ecology), shot their way in without conceding or negotiating, and when morally challenged, produced 4000 year old mythology, written by themselves, as immovable justification for all future behavior.
                  Maybe brain transplants; or, anyway mythology transplants, would help? Takes me back to Eminent Domain. Pessimism is sometimes warranted. Do Google the *Balfour Declaration*.
                  Yes, I understand all that. However, there are two sides to a story.

                  regards,

                  bob

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    cacio: The phylo tree for 12 markers places 'al-Hashmi' and 'al-Hussaini' in Haplogroup G (M201), while the tree for 25 markers places only 'al-Hashmi' in the same haplogroup (chart in Arabic script) :http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...uladnaproject/ . I wonder if the database is sufficiently large for these Arabian clans to be assigned a haplogroup? Do we also understand that al-Hashmis belong to Haplogroup G? This 'conclusion' based on just one 'Arabian Peninsula (AP) DNA Project' member has an important implication: As is well known, Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is from al-Hashmi lineage, so can we conclusively assign Haplogroup G to this lineage?

                    As had been discussed in another thread on Prophet Muhammad's lineage, we had been confronted with the dilemma of a very small data base so nothing conclusive emerged. Further, we have so-called G & G2 (Saudi Arabian) modal haplotypes on ySearch but the underlying surnames like Syed, al-Hashmi, al-Hussaini, etc, are far and few between to establish these modals. Any comments?

                    As for your observation about the single Haplogroup C member in the AP DNA Project, my feeling is that, likely, it could be a Turkic or even a Pakistani C3 who stayed behind after the annual Haj pilgrimage, rather than an aboriginal C (mostly Hindu or animist) whose traces are found only in South India. Nevertheless, it begs further inquiry as it would be an intriguing discovery of early Out of Africa remnants who wandered off the coastal route!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Kaiser:

                      does the al-Hashmi appear in the STR results? I think the list of STRs only has one G, al-Hussaini. Which makes it difficult to evaluate. Anyway, as usual, it is not clear from the list whether we are talking about Arabs from the Gulf or people from somewhere else that list their origin as such because of family traditions.

                      As for the C's, I think your explanation is the most likely. However, in Oman it was detected in 3 out of 121 people - this could have the same origin, but Oman had also trades with India. (Incidentally, Oman had 2 out of 121 G, and quite a fair amount of E3a and E3b, which so far doesn't seem to have spilled into the rest of Arabia). May be tomorrow I'll try to compare the STRs of the C with Sengupta/Qamar. It's late now

                      cacio

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        cacio: The STR chart includes a Haplogroup G 'al-Hussaini' only but the 12-marker phylo tree shows M201 branching off into 'al-Hashmi' and 'al-Hussaini'. The phylo tree is in Arabic script, which, I presume you can't decipher.

                        Oman is situated astride the OOA coastal route so Haplogroup C should be no surprise. Also, India, particularly the South, which harbours some Haplogroup C*- RPS4Y (5% - Bamshad et al, 2001; 3.6% Thanseem et al, 2006), has had maritime links with the Gulf Coast (including Oman) for centuries; an analysis of STR values could help sort the Omani source.

                        PS: A useful resource on Haplogroup C* origins and migrations is:
                        Gene Flow from the Indian Subcontinent to Australia: Evidence from the Y Chromosome, Alan J Redd et al, 2002, Current Biology.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hussaini = Hashimi

                          Originally posted by Kaiser
                          cacio: The phylo tree for 12 markers places 'al-Hashmi' and 'al-Hussaini' in Haplogroup G (M201), while the tree for 25 markers places only 'al-Hashmi' in the same haplogroup (chart in Arabic script) :http://www.familytreedna.com/public/...uladnaproject/ ....
                          I wonder if Hussaini is identifying himself with the Hashimi clan, since I dont see AP project participants with the Hashimi last name?

                          BTW did you notice, Shabani seems very closely related to an unassigned J2?

                          regards,

                          bob
                          Last edited by bob_chasm; 26 March 2007, 10:08 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Bob:

                            good point. Shaibani used to participate in the forum, so I guess he's looked into that. Another interesting point is that a couple of numbers are consecutive. Does FTDNA assign consecutive numbers to orders shipped together? Anyway, our Hussaini is in a group 71144-71147- though the 4 of them are all different.

                            cacio

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by bob_chasm
                              I wonder if Hussaini is identifying himself with the Hashimi clan, since I dont see AP project participants with the Hashimi last name? bob
                              Hashmi clan has been followed by numerous offshoots, so it is possible that Hussaini could identify himself with ancestral Hashmi as well.

                              Here is a primer on the genealogy of Hashmis and some of the prominent offshoots descended from Ali, who was Muhammad's cousin (paternal uncle's son) and married to his daughter Fatima:

                              Qusay>Abd Manaf>Hashim>Abd al-Mutallab>Abdullah>Muhammad (pbuh)>Fatima=Ali...

                              Ali>Hussain>Zain al-abidin>Hussain>Hussaini Syeds (Shiite)
                              ..................................>Muhammad al-Baqir>Jafar al-Sadiq>Ismail>Ismailis (Shiite)
                              ..................................>Zaid>Zaidis (Shiite)

                              Ali>Hasan>Hasan>Abdallah al-Kamil>Jafar>Sharifs of Sus (Morocco)
                              ...............................................>Mu hammad>Alawi Sharifs (Morocco)
                              ...............................................>Mu sa al-Jaun>Sharifs of Mecca
                              ...............................................>Id ris>Idrissi Sharif's of North Africa

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