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The definitive guide to Polish genetics (first draft)

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  • #16
    Originally posted by lgmayka
    No, it is merely correctness.


    It is correct to call any influx from outside the historical ethnic Polish group a genetic admixture, but not to use the adjective 'foreign'. 'foreign' is a political term, applicable to non-citizens, and highly objectionable when applied merely to someone whose first language differs from yours.


    False. You are referring to various population studies of modern-day Poles which generally did not deliberately exclude people of other ethnicities (i.e., first languages other than Polish). You are relying on the fact that the genocides, ethnic cleansings, and foreign domination associated with World War II artificially induced a kind of 'ethnic purity' into Poland which had not been there in at least the preceding 600 years. You should have stated this precondition more clearly.

    In general, you also seem to miss the primary reason for people to investigate genetic ancestry. In Polish terms, it is not the R1a men who scour research papers for clues as to their origin--they consider it quite obvious that R1a was the predominant haplogroup of the ancient Slavs, and so R1a is essentially the 'default' haplogroup of Poles. It is precisely the members of other haplogroups who see a need to 'explain' their origin, and who are therefore generally most interested in genetic ancestry. Your essay could easily be interpreted as disparaging all the other elements, from various sources, that have come to compose the Polish ethnic group, and beyond that the historical Polish Republic.


    But again, I do not mean to be overly critical of your contribution to the forum. I myself have been sensitized to issues like this precisely because, as the administrator of the Polish Project, I deal every day with the basic question I mentioned in the previous paragraph: When and how did this man's ancestor, in this haplogroup, come to be part of Poland? R1a men rarely ask this question, because they don't need to. Others do.

    Foreign doesn't need to be a political term. It can be used in anything from genetics to cooking. For example, "foreign matter".

    My report is NOT political. It has nothing to do with politics or culture. Therefore the word "foreign" is not a political term here.

    I don't care much for politics.

    Comment


    • #17
      Ok guys, I've several times on these forums where people get into it over text. Both of you evidently have knowledge of the subject at hand. It is greatly appreciated that you are sharing it with others within this forum.

      DNA testing is representative of present day people utilizing those who are enlisted into testing or volunteers. Today's mixture of haplogroups may not be an accurate reflection of past historical movements. We do know that historically that the population of Poland had several different groups of people invaded including Danes, Swedes, Germans, Russians, etc. and immigrant Jews (which were welcomed by Polish nobility). Is it possble that groups separated themselves to prevent admixture? Is it possible that there was mixture of genetics. The answer to both is yes. However, you then need to include religious aspects into the discussion. The mixture may not be readily present in todays population.

      I don't think we are really observing a random group of hapotypes when data is presented. Geneticists don't have the luxury of random subjects. They get what they get. What's important in this discussion is that Polish genetics is being presented, reviewed and refined so that others may benefit from the information. However, it is important to present information with peer reviewed sources as backup instead of conjecture. Both of you are looked upon by others as sources of information that will be cited in web pages and possibly articles. So be as accurate with your information as possible. Some readers may take what you say as definitive. Although the "joke" may be funny, you'd be surprised how many people take your comments seriously. Please be aware of that.


      Mr Mayka I understand that you are representing the interests of others that may be offended by comments that intimate that other haplogroups do not have an influence on the genetics of the Polish population. Truth be told that genealogically the populations and borders of Poland have changed rather dramatically and the comparison of past populations to present populations cannot be reasonably done genetically but rather historically. And in that affect Mr Mayka is correct. The problem is that the interpretation of present day genetic data cannot be judged without associating historical information. The abundance of a haplogroup in a population can change over time and we only have today's data to work with.

      So please work together to create information that is both useful and accurate. It will be greatly appreciated.

      Robert Sliwinski
      Professional Biologist and Amatuer Genealogist
      R1a1
      Parents born in Poland
      Grandfather died in Concentration Camp
      Raised Roman Catholic

      Comment


      • #18
        mtDNA haplogroups in Poland and Russia, including M

        Here is a full-text reference of the paper that lists mtDNA haplogroups among Poles and Russians, including the mysterious M:

        http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...9.2002.00116.x

        ---
        Table 4. Haplogroup distributions (no. of individuals and % values in parentheses) in Poles and Russians

        Haplogroup Poles (436) Russians (201)

        H 197 (45.18) 85 (42.29)
        HV* 4 (0.92) 4 (1.99)
        pre-V 21 (4.82) 11 (5.47)
        pre-HV 0 1 (0.50)
        J 34 (7.80) 16 (7.96)
        T* 41 (9.40) 18 (8.96)
        T1 9 (2.06) 4 (1.99)
        K 15 (3.44) 6 (2.99)
        U1 0 2 (1.00)
        U2 4 (0.92) 3 (1.49)
        U3 2 (0.46) 2 (1.00)
        U4 22 (5.05) 7 (3.48)
        U5 38 (8.72) 21 (10.45)
        U7 1 (0.23) 1 (0.50)
        U8 2 (0.46) 0
        U* 1 (0.23) 0
        I 8(1.83) 5 (2.49)
        W 16 (3.67) 4 (1.99)
        X 8(1.83) 7 (3.48)
        N1b 1 (0.23) 0
        N1c 1 (0.23) 0
        R* 2 (0.46) 1 (0.50)
        L3 1 (0.23) 0
        M 8(1.83) 3 (1.49)
        ---

        This indeed tells us that 8 / 436 Poles were of mtDNA haplogroup M.

        But note that the entire Polish sample was taken exclusively from the Pomerania-Kujawy region.
        Last edited by lgmayka; 15 February 2007, 09:44 PM.

        Comment


        • #19
          I should explain that 1.8% in the mtDNA paper refers to macrohaplogroup M, which includes not only M1 and M* but also C, D, E, G, Q, and Z. Specifically:
          ---
          The remaining CR sequences found in Poles and Russians were classified as belonging to the East Eurasian macro-haplogroup M. Both macro-haplogroups M and N coalesce to the African cluster L3, which is considered as the most recent ancestor of all Eurasians (Quintana-Murci et al. 1999; Ingman et al. 2000). M-haplogroups such as C, D, E, G and Z are very rare in western European populations. We have observed members of the haplogroups C, D, E, G and M* in Poles and Russians at a frequency of 1.8% and 1.5%, respectively. However, diversity of the M-CR sequence types was high, both in Poles and in Russians. Haplogroup C sequences defined by CR motif 16223-16298-16327-249D were present in Poles. Haplogroup C sequences were previously also described at low frequency in Russian populations (Orekhov et al. 1999; Malyarchuk et al. 2001). In addition, haplogroup Z sequences were revealed in Russians at a frequency of 1.3% (Orekhov et al. 1999; Malyarchuk & Derenko, 2001). Interestingly, both haplogroup C and Z sequences are characterized by the deletion of an adenine residue at np 249 (variant 249D). According to the phylogenetic data based on variation in the complete mtDNA sequences, both haplogroups C and Z have shared polymorphisms at nps 4715, 7196CA, and 8584 (Finnila et al. 2001b; Maca-Meyer et al. 2001) and should be considered as sister haplogroups (Kivisild et al. 2001). Haplogroup Z sequences were found in many Siberian/Central Asian populations (Kolman et al. 1996; Derenko & Shields, 1997; Schurr et al. 1999; Derenko et al. 2000) as well as in Saami (Sajantila et al. 1995). The Saami gene pool is also characterized by the presence of the D-lineage with motif 16126-16136-16189-16223-16360-16362, found at a low frequency of 4.7% (Delghandi et al. 1998). In the present study, an identical sequence type was found among Russians. A similar CR sequence type, observed in Poles, belongs to the 16189-subcluster of haplogroup D. In addition, both Polish and Russian samples are characterized by the presence of the Saami-specific U5b-motif (16144-16189-16270) found at a frequency of 0.5% in Poles and 1.5% in Russians. The presence of the Saami-specific mtDNAs from haplogroups D and U5b, as well as haplogroup Z sequences, in the mitochondrial gene pool of Russians was considered as a consequence of local Finno-Ugric tribe assimilation by Slavs during their movement to the north of Eastern Europe, a trend suggested previously by anthropologists (Alekseeva, 1973).

          The remaining M-sequences in Poles and Russians were identified as belonging to haplogroups G, E and M*. In the case of haplogroup G, both Russian and Polish sequence types had both G and E specific RFLPs (+4830HaeII/+*4831HhaI for G and -7598HhaI for E); the latter marker originated on the background of haplogroup G due to mutation at np 7600, which gives a similar E-specific RFLP pattern (Kivisild et al. 2001).
          ---

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by Sliwinski
            Ok guys, I've several times on these forums where people get into it over text. Both of you evidently have knowledge of the subject at hand. It is greatly appreciated that you are sharing it with others within this forum.

            DNA testing is representative of present day people utilizing those who are enlisted into testing or volunteers. Today's mixture of haplogroups may not be an accurate reflection of past historical movements. We do know that historically that the population of Poland had several different groups of people invaded including Danes, Swedes, Germans, Russians, etc. and immigrant Jews (which were welcomed by Polish nobility). Is it possble that groups separated themselves to prevent admixture? Is it possible that there was mixture of genetics. The answer to both is yes. However, you then need to include religious aspects into the discussion. The mixture may not be readily present in todays population.

            I don't think we are really observing a random group of hapotypes when data is presented. Geneticists don't have the luxury of random subjects. They get what they get. What's important in this discussion is that Polish genetics is being presented, reviewed and refined so that others may benefit from the information. However, it is important to present information with peer reviewed sources as backup instead of conjecture. Both of you are looked upon by others as sources of information that will be cited in web pages and possibly articles. So be as accurate with your information as possible. Some readers may take what you say as definitive. Although the "joke" may be funny, you'd be surprised how many people take your comments seriously. Please be aware of that.


            Mr Mayka I understand that you are representing the interests of others that may be offended by comments that intimate that other haplogroups do not have an influence on the genetics of the Polish population. Truth be told that genealogically the populations and borders of Poland have changed rather dramatically and the comparison of past populations to present populations cannot be reasonably done genetically but rather historically. And in that affect Mr Mayka is correct. The problem is that the interpretation of present day genetic data cannot be judged without associating historical information. The abundance of a haplogroup in a population can change over time and we only have today's data to work with.

            So please work together to create information that is both useful and accurate. It will be greatly appreciated.

            Robert Sliwinski
            Professional Biologist and Amatuer Genealogist
            R1a1
            Parents born in Poland
            Grandfather died in Concentration Camp
            Raised Roman Catholic

            I'm not really sure if I understood your post. But anyway, my write up was just a little something on the side. I hope no one uses it as a source anywhere, because it's not a formal scientific paper by any stretch. It just brings together info on Poles from a variety of scientific papers, which the members can review for themselves.

            Comment


            • #21
              There's something about M

              For what it's worth about M, in a correspondence with Leah Wark about my wife's M status, she said that it was unlikely that she had any Gypsy heritage her because her mtDNA matches were all Iberian and Italian.

              She mentioned that eastern European matches would make it more likely that she had Romani (I'm confused about the PC word for gypsies because Romani, Aromani and Roma are also words I have seen used for people of Vlach background) heritage. Doing more research, I found that Gypsies are usually M5.

              The M* designation for folk is done because some of the latest research on sub-groups is recent and sometimes defining mutations sit in the background when a less thorough test is conducted.

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by Andrew M
                For what it's worth about M, in a correspondence with Leah Wark about my wife's M status, she said that it was unlikely that she had any Gypsy heritage her because her mtDNA matches were all Iberian and Italian.

                She mentioned that eastern European matches would make it more likely that she had Romani (I'm confused about the PC word for gypsies because Romani, Aromani and Roma are also words I have seen used for people of Vlach background) heritage. Doing more research, I found that Gypsies are usually M5.

                The M* designation for folk is done because some of the latest research on sub-groups is recent and sometimes defining mutations sit in the background when a less thorough test is conducted.
                What are the haplogroups of all the Iberian and Italian gyspy people? Are they something other than M? I've studied the history of the Romany people and from what I remember, when they left India, they split up and went in different directions. One group went North, the other South. Do you think new mutations could have happened along the way that makes DNA slightly different but still from the same origins? Have you ever heard of the movie Latcho Drom?

                Comment


                • #23
                  I think the idea is that if my wife were Romany, she would find matches (probably M5) in both Italian/Iberian and eastern Europe. Instead her matches were exclusively in Italy/Iberia along with more that I researched in Morocco and Tunisia. This shows that she's probably M1 from a group that went backwards into Africa instead of reaching the Indian subcontinent.

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    haplogroupc:

                    the only study I know with Spanish gypsies is by Gresham et al (Origin and divergence of the Roma). It has a small sample of 20-30 Spanish Roma. They have the same haplogroups as the other Roma groups (M5, H, U3). They have however much more U3 than the others. However, the sample is too small to say anything for sure.

                    As for accumulating mutations after the split, I don't think there has been enough time. Let's say the gypsies moved to Europe around 1,000 years ago. At the rate of mtdna mutations, there is simply not enough time for extensive differentiation. Any difference between various gypsy populations in Europe must be due to genetic drift, difference in the original populations to start with, and admixture with local people.

                    cacio

                    Comment

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