E3b, Irish, and Czechs (Gentile and Jewish)

[lgmayka]

My adoptive cousin is an E3b1, biologically of (Gentile) Czech paternal ancestry. Take a look at his Ysearch neighbor list at 66 markers:

http://www.ysearch.org/search_results.asp?uid=XEPZF&min_markers=64&mismatch_type=absolute&mismatches_max=19

His closest neighbors are at a genetic distance of 16, but they are Irish and British! A misunderstanding about my cousin's biological ancestry is unlikely, because at a GD of 17 is an Ashkenazi Jewish Czech, and at 19 is a German.

Also look at his neighbors at 37 and 53 markers:

http://www.ysearch.org/search_results.asp?uid=XEPZF&min_markers=36&mismatch_type=absolute&mismatches_max=9

7CN2P of Ireland is a friend of mine who is waiting for one more marker panel. He is only 9 steps away at 53 markers. QP446 of Ireland is only 7 steps away at 37 markers. QP446, please upgrade to 67 markers to help us figure this out!

The Ashkenazi Jewish Czech's neighbor list at 66 markers is analogous to my cousin's, with Irish and Central European mixed together:

http://www.ysearch.org/search_results.asp?uid=A2URP&min_markers=64&mismatch_type=absolute&mismatches_max=20

7CN2P of Ireland is still waiting for one more panel, but his neighbor list right now shows Czechs closer than other Irish:

http://www.ysearch.org/search_results.asp?uid=7CN2P&min_markers=52&mismatch_type=absolute&mismatches_max=15

So what does this all mean?

The genetic distances here (e.g., 16 at 66 markers) correspond roughly to 2500 years ago. There is apparently some kind of 2500-year-ago connection between Central European and Irish E3b.

There may be a similar connection between Central European and Irish G, but we have fewer examples. Take a look at the 37-marker neighbor list of my uncle from southern Poland, a G:

http://www.ysearch.org/search_results.asp?uid=3VPV7&min_markers=36&mismatch_type=absolute&mismatches_max=10

Irish S8542 is only 7 steps away from my uncle, at 37 markers. S8542, please upgrade to 67 markers to we can check this out! At 67 markers, my uncle currently has no one closer than a genetic distance of 23.


Needless to say, all this neighboring is too close to blame on the invention and spread of farming, which occurred thousands of years earlier. Years ago, geneticists would blame everything on those darn Neoliths, but 67-marker haplotypes tell us that many of these relationships between the Continent and the Isles are closer than that.

[Andrew M]

I had questions along those lines too, but seem to have more recent historical problems. Let me explain. The E3b forum has been kicking around the possibility of certain British E3b1 alphas as being picked up from Thrace by the Romans and used in their legions that were centered in places like Chester and North Wales. My 12 markers show that I fit in with a small cluster of Welshmen from the northern part of that area.

When my 25 markers came back, some acid was thrown (at least in my own case) on that theory of my origins. The Ukraine (Polish name/Lemko background) and United Kingdom were all that remained close. All others were dropped.

I was a 24/25 match with someone from the Carpathians--I missed out only on a fast-moving marker. When I made connection with that individual, he said that all his generations descended from the Vlach who later (his personal origins) became a small ethnic group called the Lemko. I looked up his distinctive surname (I was adopted as an infant) and saw a picture of someone with that same last name on the web from the place he mentioned his family was from. Even my wife agreed that the person "looks like he could be my brother." Amazingly we are both about the same age and are men of the cloth.

To further compound the weirdness, I have a 22/25 match from Yorkshire, Englad. Using some timeline generators, I linked my ancestry to the British match at 1100's and the Vlach match to the 1700's at the latest. I was a 19/25 match with most on the "Welsh Group".

FTDNA said I had about a 28% chance that my 24/25 match was within the last 4 generations--with increasing chances every 4 generations.

Another puzzling thing is that my YSearch matches have a lot more English, Welsh and German "cousins" while the overall FTDNA "close mutations" show that I "own" the Ukraine, Lithuania, Galicia, Poland, Serbia (with a smattering of Iberian connections) and my Scottish, Irish and British matches are more distant singletons (except for Yorkshire's 22/25 match).

This leaves me to wonder how in the world an isolated place like the Carpatians could have connected in the last few hundred years with Great Britian.

My YSearch number is 8CBYW--the Ukraine (Polish-Lemko) match isn't on the list--he can be found at YBase.

[Beth Long]

Carpathian Haplogroups

Hi Andrew,

I have a whole project of (Hungarian speakers) from the Carpathian Basin. There turned out to be a lot more haplogroup diversity than anyone would have thought (R1a, I1b, R1b, J2, E3b, G). I'm having some of the same questions you are...

Western Europe is vastly overrepresented in FTDNA and Y-search databases, and it's going to take a while to sort out migration histories in Central and Eastern Europe, as there are relatively few examples so far

See our project results:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/HungarianBukovinaSurnames/

We hope to eventually test about 130 surnames.

Beth Long

[Andrew M]

Thanks for the link, Beth. I am amazed at the diversity too. Hopefully more Carpathians will join.

[lgmayka]

This leaves me to wonder how in the world an isolated place like the Carpatians could have connected in the last few hundred years with Great Britian.

My own suspicion is that if you upgrade to 37, and then to 67, markers, you will find that the connection with the British Isles lengthens to more like 2000 years ago. But I agree that there appears to be some mysterious ancient connection between the Carpathians and the British Isles. This is separate from the better-documented recruiting of Balkan soldiers to staff Roman forts in Britain.

[Beth Long]

Two-way street?

Yes, but there is the case of my cousin who is the reverse (i.e. he's an R1b very close to the Atlantic modal haplotype, but from Transylvania). See y-search ID E2GWX (which I think you looked at already).

I don't think his ancestors came from England to Transylvania (!); it makes more sense that they split off from other R1bs somewhere around what is now Germany (just a possible theory).

One has to be careful of seeing everything through the lens of the British Isles (though I realize that is the background of many people in the the U.S. and hence in the FTDNA database). To me, the British Isles are more a destination than a source...

Beth

[Beth Long]

Thanks for the link, Beth. I am amazed at the diversity too. Hopefully more Carpathians will join.

Well, we're working on it. Unfortunately, it's a fund-raising problem as my subjects are mainly old folks in Hungary who are living on their pensions (maybe $300/month). So I either pay for their testing myself or fundraise among the relatives who emigrated abroad.

I'm trying to interest some academic institiution in the project, since it could make a very nice subject pool. This group lived in isolation in Bukovina from about 1785 to 1945 (when they were relocated to Hungary). We have most of their family trees back to the mid-1780s, which makes it particularly interesting.

Beth

[lgmayka]

To me, the British Isles are more a destination than a source...

I agree, but I was trying to be 'balanced' so as not to put off those who devoutly believe (a la Oppenheimer) that British Isles genes have not changed in many thousands of years.

[Andrew M]

My own suspicion is that if you upgrade to 37, and then to 67, markers, you will find that the connection with the British Isles lengthens to more like 2000 years ago. But I agree that there appears to be some mysterious ancient connection between the Carpathians and the British Isles. This is separate from the better-documented recruiting of Balkan soldiers to staff Roman forts in Britain.

Also there are more recent connections between Bohemia and Britian. Before Luther, Hus and Wycliff had some serious meshing going on http://www.ritchies.net/p3wk9.htm

By the way, the web address isn't meant as a push towards religion, just evidence of a link between Prague and Oxford. While going for a religion degree in the 80's at a college to the west of London I remember a professor saying that there was a relationship between Bonemia and England around 500 years ago that made it possible for Hus to pick up Wycliff's ideas. Perhaps this included a small back-and-forth movement of people. So far the DNA surveys are, in my opinion, too small to come to major conclusions. I'm just trying to lay out some history that may lead to an explanation.

[Andrew M]

I didn't quite get this edit in the alotted 15 minutes, but here's a quote from the article mentioning the connection between England and Prague:

There had been a lot of contact between Oxford and Prague and between England and Bohemia recently, due to intermarriage between the two royal families.

[Jim Denning]

I had questions along those lines too, but seem to have more recent historical problems. Let me explain. The E3b forum has been kicking around the possibility of certain British E3b1 alphas as being picked up from Thrace by the Romans and used in their legions that were centered in places like Chester and North Wales. My 12 markers show that I fit in with a small cluster of Welshmen from the northern part of that area.

the britiany isles were founded by keltoi who also were the people of trace

it would figure they would match

[Beth Long]

Translation please.

the britiany isles were founded by keltoi who also were the people of trace

it would figure they would match

Hi Jim,

What are the "britiany isles", who are the "keltoi", and where is "trace"?

Beth Long

[Jim Honeychuck]

This leaves me to wonder how in the world an isolated place like the Carpatians could have connected in the last few hundred years with Great Britian.

Andrew,

Working not with E3b but with J1, I see a suggestion of a similar situation. Note where those Vlachs originated, in what is now Romania and was once Dacia. It was from there or a little to the east that the Romans recruited cavalry who went to northern England.

If this theory is correct, the connection between the English and the Carpathian cases will turn out to be 2,000 years old, as Larry suggested.

Jim
Y-DNA J1, Slovak Carpathian and possibly Vlach descent

[Andrew M]

Folks at the E3b forum are eagerly anticipating deeper clade tests based on Cruciani's research. E3b1 will be further subdivided. This will definately bolster the "Roman Theory" (Thrace to Britian) as some are calling it. There's a company that is currently offering the deeper E3b test and FTDNA says (in an e-mail from Leah Wark to me a few weeks ago) that they should be offering them soon.