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Israel, DNA, Jews and the Alpha Male

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Nagelfar
    It would be more correct to say; the majority of male Europeans (Haplogroup R1b) have a Y chromosome more closely related to East Indian, Chinese and Native Americans than to the base Y chromosome type of many Semites, Scandanavians and Italians.
    Well, R1b1c is the most common haplogroup in Italy but I think your point is still valid: you cannot deduce how closely related two people are based soley on one single genetic locus (i.e. the y-chromosome).

    Two men in haplogroup K2 are not necessarily more closely related to each other than someone in haplogroup E3b is to someone in R1b1c.

    Their y-chromosomes are more more closely related, but the men are not necessarily more closely related.

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Beth Long
      Bob,

      I think he's referring to (all) the ancestors on the paternal side. For example, if you go back ten generations, you have 1024 different ancestors, of which 512 are paternal ancestors (or ancestors on the paternal side, if you want to put it that way).

      Beth Long
      I think youre right, but more fundamentally, he is referring to autosomal dna closeness, while I am speaking about paternal tribal identity.

      As far as automsomal closeness is concerned, I dont think one can say all Europeans are genetically closer to each other than to non Europeans. Humanbeings share such recent common ancestors that there hasnt been enough time for significant divergences to develop between populations. If there were divergences, then Italians, who live in populations with J2 and without R1a would be genetically different than Scandanavians that have R1a, but almost no J2 haplogroup. In such a case, it wouldnt matter how many ancestors one accumulated in ten generations. On the other hand, a population like that of Iran with significant numbers of both J2, R1a and R1b would be genetically closer to both these populations.

      European history is replete with tribal, religious and linguistic differences, because people lived in isolated groups. Therefore, it cannot be assumed that individuals had the mobility to travel across the continent as they do now and mix. The European Union and the airplane/ automobile culture is a recent development. Just because Europeans generally have light complexion doesnt make them genetically closely related to each other. Japanese and Chinese also have light complexions, but its not because they are more closely related to Europeans. Jews, Arabs and Ethiopians have caucasian features, but again it is not because they share a recent common ancestor with Europeans.

      regards,

      bob

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      • #78
        People from the same y dna or mtdna haplogroups will tend to have similar autosomal gene lines provided they always lived in a confined geographical space where the autosomal lines were present. Y dna haplogroups such as R will show less autosomal similarity because of the great range of migration for haplogroup R. The same goes for mtdna haplogroup H.

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        • #79
          Autosomal dna closeness

          I think both the books, Journey of Man and The Genographic Project by Spencer Wells address this issue with more clarity and depth than I can present in a post. I highly recommend reading his work. Some of the ideas I took away were:

          Two siblings may have less autosomal dna closeness, in for example intelligence, than two people who havent shared a parent, since all humanbeings are so closely related. The discovery of the Adam and Eve gene and subsequent haplogroups suggests that humans havent had the time to develop significant evolutionary differences that take hundreds of thousands if not millions of years to develop. Traits such as skin color and skin folds over eyes etc are simple single gene mutations, the result of a need for geographical adaptation and such. Individual mobility and mixing, as we see it today was uncommon. People lived in tribes. Haplogroup studies help us in understanding their journey.

          regards,

          bob
          Last edited by bob_chasm; 15 February 2007, 09:04 PM.

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          • #80
            Sephardi Jews

            I would like to know if the Caggegi/Haggadah family were Sephardi Jews originating in the Iberian Peninsula?

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            • #81
              The Merovingian kings DNA - Salian Franks DNA - Gauls DNA.

              I believe - there are strong connections with The Merovingian kings, Salian Franks, Gauls, Saxons and Longobards / Lombards. These various Germanic peoples were from the Rhine delta area. The DNA is 6% exact with Wales - Galles (in Italian) Galles, Gallic, Gauls... The DNA is 2% exact with Gallo-Roman/Norman/Lombard Sicilians. It has been has to tell the difference between Franks, Saxons and Lombards. I'm starting to think it going to take some time before we can. I know that The Merovingian kings were R1b1c Atlantic Modal Haplotype (AMH). They were not Semitic in origin like history tells... or were they the lost ten tribes?

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              • #82
                The Caggegi Family: from Haggi, the family of the Haggites

                The Caggegi Family: from Haggi, the family of the Haggites - The children of Gad.

                The Gadites were assigned the lands of Jazer and of Gilead (Jordan).

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