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  • #46
    j1 vs. j2

    I think it's interesting trying to find lineages dating to the ancient hebrews sure it would be nice to know that your ancestors were in the most published book in history.I have something to add that j2 are prevailant in italy possible roman origin because afterall romans occupied israel but not saying that there are not j and j1 in italy but less in britain where their are j2's rome conquered the ancient british.The romans were everywhere so who knows.This topic is very ugly because we are all human beings and j2 j1 z69 it doesn't matter goy non goy were supposed to be doing the right thing.One more thing they tested the arabs that claim descendent to ismael and it came out j1.


    Bored in Iraq

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    • #47
      Ishmaelite Arabs

      Originally posted by TimeKiller
      One more thing they tested the arabs that claim descendent to ismael and it came out j1.


      Bored in Iraq
      TimeKiller: My understanding is that Ishmaelite Arabs are a mixture of J2 and J1. That Non Ishmaelite (aka Pure Arabs) are J1. Could you please cite the study that suggested descendants of Ismael were J1?

      regards,

      bob

      Comment


      • #48
        Sephardim vs Ashkenazi

        Originally posted by josh w.
        ... As I noted Sephardic Jews often resided in regions where J2 was more common than J1. Indeed it appears that R1b will turn out to be the modal haplogroup at least for Sephards living in western Europe.
        Which regions did the Sephardim reside in which J2 was more common than J1? I didnt know that there was a significant amount of R1b among Sephardim.

        regards,

        bob
        Last edited by bob_chasm; 8 February 2007, 08:36 PM.

        Comment


        • #49
          Quraysh tribe

          Bob:
          The Quraysh tribe of arabia aka claiming to be descendent of ishmael also bedouin.


          I found one page I didn't have time I have to pick up these iraqis right now but here is what I got.http://www.healthanddna.com/JreportY.pdf

          I am also interested to see where you found your source that j2's were mixed with the arabs?

          Bored in iraq

          Comment


          • #50
            J2

            Originally posted by TimeKiller
            I have something to add that j2 are prevailant in italy possible roman origin because afterall romans occupied israel but not saying that there are not j and j1 in italy but less in britain where their are j2's rome conquered the ancient british.

            Bored in Iraq

            According to Jewish tradition/ rabbinc literature, Amelkites the descendants of Abraham thru Esau went to Rome. If this were true, it would make sense for J2 descendants of Abraham to be found in Italy.

            regards,

            bob

            Comment


            • #51
              J2 Arabs

              Originally posted by TimeKiller
              Bob:
              The Quraysh tribe of arabia aka claiming to be descendent of ishmael also bedouin.


              I found one page I didn't have time I have to pick up these iraqis right now but here is what I got.http://www.healthanddna.com/JreportY.pdf

              I am also interested to see where you found your source that j2's were mixed with the arabs?

              Bored in iraq
              The website you posted has a map showing range of J2 centered in Turkey/ Northern Iraq and spreading down into Northern Arabia -home of the Bedouin.

              regards,

              bob

              Comment


              • #52
                Originally posted by bob_chasm
                According to Jewish tradition/ rabbinc literature, Amelkites the descendants of Abraham thru Esau went to Rome. If this were true, it would make sense for J2 descendants of Abraham to be found in Italy.

                regards,

                bob


                Ya but how would you prove that? By a lot of close or exact matches with Middle Eastern people of today? Or Jews?



                Y-DNA: J2a*

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by TimeKiller
                  Bob:
                  The Quraysh tribe of arabia aka claiming to be descendent of ishmael also bedouin.


                  I found one page I didn't have time I have to pick up these iraqis right now but here is what I got.http://www.healthanddna.com/JreportY.pdf

                  I am also interested to see where you found your source that j2's were mixed with the arabs?

                  Bored in iraq

                  TimeKiller do you know your haplogroup?


                  Y-DNA: J2a*

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    First Exile

                    How about the first exile they went to babylon did they all return? I have met alot kurdish people they are mostly j2 their appearences look jewish some also look italian but appearence is 1 chromosone.The bedoin Quraysh tribe claim descent from ishmael they were from mecca actually muhammed claimed this,mecca is in the south. I think we need more samples.I think j2 is roman because their are mostly j2's in italy but it's just a opinion folks. This topic is about one thing the descendents of abraham forefather of middle east or roman italy and the prophecy as being as numerous as sand on the beach. According to halacha jewish law your mother is to be jewish in order for you to be jewish so it really doesn't matter.I certainly do not know or claim to know it's just a opinion.There is one thing for sure there are a many different stocks of people in the middle east.As it has been conquered many a time alexander the romans the mongolian horde the muslims the crusaders the turks.So to say hey jewish people come from this guy is a little bit tricky. I know in this modern time we have geneva convention and rape and pillage are in the past or are they.I think there was a reason they rebelled against the romans and the second temple was destroyed.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Relative Proof/ reasonable probability

                      Originally posted by J Man
                      Ya but how would you prove that? By a lot of close or exact matches with Middle Eastern people of today? Or Jews?



                      Y-DNA: J2a*

                      Based on the assumptions that

                      IF

                      1. Israelites had a patriarch Abraham who lived after the creation of the subclade J1 and J2, whose descendants are among Ashkenazi, Sephardi, Cohen and lay Jewish populations.

                      2. The recorded Jewish tradition that Amelkites went to Rome is true.

                      3. The Samaritans, as they claim, are descendants of the same patriarch (Abraham).

                      4. The Bani Israel of India, as they claim, are Israelite descendants of the same patriarch (Abraham).

                      5. Ishmaelites are among the Turks and Arabs.

                      6. The tradition of the ten 10 lost tribes of Israel is true.

                      7. The promise that Abraham's descendants would be numerous is true.

                      Then, there is a reasonable probability that their patriarch (Abraham) was J2, since J2 is the only sub clade that is found in significant numbers in all these population categories. Change/ modify the assumptions and one can always draw different conclusions.

                      regards,

                      bob
                      Last edited by bob_chasm; 9 February 2007, 12:18 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Costas of the J2 project just reported on the possibility of connecting a distinctive J2 haplotype cluster (somewhat different from a SNP subclade) with the British Isles. Perhaps the project will be able to make some distinction between southern European and Middle Eastern clusters. However this might have been easier to do in an area where J is less common, i.e. where there might be less subclade overlap.

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Mecca and Medina

                          Originally posted by TimeKiller
                          How about the first exile they went to babylon did they all return? I have met alot kurdish people they are mostly j2 their appearences look jewish some also look italian but appearence is 1 chromosone.The bedoin Quraysh tribe claim descent from ishmael they were from mecca actually muhammed claimed this,mecca is in the south. I think we need more samples.I think j2 is roman because their are mostly j2's in italy but it's just a opinion folks. This topic is about one thing the descendents of abraham forefather of middle east or roman italy and the prophecy as being as numerous as sand on the beach. According to halacha jewish law your mother is to be jewish in order for you to be jewish so it really doesn't matter.I certainly do not know or claim to know it's just a opinion.There is one thing for sure there are a many different stocks of people in the middle east.As it has been conquered many a time alexander the romans the mongolian horde the muslims the crusaders the turks. So to say hey jewish people come from this guy is a little bit tricky. I know in this modern time we have geneva convention and rape and pillage are in the past or are they.I think there was a reason they rebelled against the romans and the second temple was destroyed.
                          That is a possibility. However, where are all the Middle Eastern descendants of R haplogroup Italians? Perhaps Caesar only brought J2 centurions?


                          http://www.hoteltravel.com/saudi_arabia/mecca/maps.htm

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Being Jewish has two meanings: 1. religious 2. tribal

                            Originally posted by TimeKiller
                            According to halacha jewish law your mother is to be jewish in order for you to be jewish so it really doesn't matter.I certainly do not know or claim to know it's just a opinion ...
                            My understanding is that the word Jewish has two meanings, religious and tribal.

                            RELIGION:

                            To belong to the Jewish RELIGION, one has to convert to Judaism if one's mother doesnt belong to the Jewish RELIGION. According to Jewish thinking, when a Jewish man marries a non Jewish woman, their children will be improperly influenced by the mother in their religious thinking. Hence, the children (both boys and girls) have to be educated about being Jewish thru the process of conversion.

                            TRIBAL:

                            For one to belong to the Jewish TRIBE, one must belong to the Jewish RELIGION (as outlined above) and be a father to son descendant of the patriarch Judah.

                            regards,


                            bob

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              True

                              Bob


                              I see your point.I would also like to ask about the "forever will be a thorn in your side" prophecy.It seems that the arabs have been giving jews problems.Also how do you propose that j and j1 got into the jewish population?Hopefully dna testing will advance and they will give to us free because we were one first before
                              Also arabs speak a semitic language also the ahmaric peoples all j1 people.Why isn't language and race related again?

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by TimeKiller
                                Why isn't language and race related again?
                                Because.... You can talk to somebody without having sex with them?

                                (or alternately, you can have sex with somebody without talking to them..? )

                                Comment

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