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  • #31
    Coffman, citing Behar's 2003 research, suggested that among Ashkenazim Cohens a bit less than 50% were J1 and a bit less than 40% were J2. In contrast, among Sephardic Cohens close to 60% were J1 less than 20% were J2. The differences appear to reflect the post Diaspora migration patterns of the two Jewish groups. This is one reason as to why I am uncertain as to the relation between the CMH and ancient Cohens.
    Among Ashkenazi Jews the ratio between J2 and J1 seems to vary by study. Behar found the ratio to be about 50-50, but other studies have found more J2 than J1.
    Last edited by josh w.; 5 February 2007, 02:31 PM.

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    • #32
      To clarify my point about uncertainty, I should have said that Coffman's review indicated that close to half of Jewish Cohens ( unweighted averaging of Ashkenazim and Sephardim) were not J1.
      Last edited by josh w.; 5 February 2007, 02:49 PM.

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      • #33
        J2

        Originally posted by josh w.
        Coffman, citing Behar's 2003 research, suggested that among Ashkenazim Cohens a bit less than 50% were J1 and a bit less than 40% were J2. In contrast, among Sephardic Cohens close to 60% were J1 less than 20% were J2.
        hi josh, if Separdi Cohanim are only 75% J, then Ashkenazi Cohanim have to be almost completely J for all Cohanim to be 87% J. Now, if only 48% of Ash Cohens are J1, then almost an equal number of Ash Cohens would have to be J2 for the total number of Ash Cohens to be completely J, wouldnt you agree? This is why I think, Coffman suggests J2 is probably only slightly less than J1 among Ash Cohanim.

        regards,

        bob

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by bob_chasm
          According to Coffman, I think J1 was only slightly more common among Cohenim than J2. In contrast, J2 is almost twice as common among lay followers of Judaism. In addition, J2 is found among Samaritans and the isolated Bene Israel population of India, while J1 presents a mixed picture in these populations. For example, Deneke suggests that J1 is absent among Bene Israel. The above referenced article suggests J1 Samaritans lack CMH.

          regards,

          bob

          Hmm this is pretty interesting. That is strange that the J1 Samaritans lack the CMH I would almost certainly think that they would definately have it. J2 definately seems to be more widespread among Jews and non-Jews than J1.



          Y-DNA: J2a*

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          • #35
            J2 Case for Israelite patriarch

            Originally posted by josh w.
            ... In contrast, among Sephardic Cohens close to 60% were J1 less than 20% were J2. ... .

            However, J2 is 30% of Sephardim and J1 is only 12%. So J2 is quite common among the Sephardim, both lay and clergy, just not as common as J1 with CMH among the clergy. So, I ask, is the fact that J2 is found in significant numbers among all Israelitish populations and therefore, could be considered the patriarch to some members among all of them less meaningful than a J1 with CMH found in a high percentage of Sephardic Cohanim, but with problems claiming to be the patriarch of the Samaritans and Bene Israel of India and most lay Jews?

            regards,

            bob
            Last edited by bob_chasm; 5 February 2007, 10:32 PM.

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            • #36
              The J2 case for an Israelite patriarch.

              Originally Posted by bob_chasm
              According to Coffman, I think J1 was only slightly more common among Cohenim than J2. In contrast, J2 is almost twice as common among lay followers of Judaism. In addition, J2 is found among Samaritans and the isolated Bene Israel population of India, while J1 presents a mixed picture in these populations. For example, Deneke suggests that J1 is absent among Bene Israel. The above referenced article suggests J1 Samaritans lack CMH.

              regards,

              bob


              Originally posted by J Man
              Hmm this is pretty interesting. That is strange that the J1 Samaritans lack the CMH I would almost certainly think that they would definately have it. J2 definately seems to be more widespread among Jews and non-Jews than J1.



              Y-DNA: J2a*

              Yes, I too would think Samaritans (who claim to be descendants of the Northern tribe of Israel) and the Bene Israel (who also claim to be descendants of the Northern tribe of Israel) would have J1 with CMH, if their ancestor, Israel (Jacob the Patriarch) was a J1 with CMH.

              So what could explain the absence of J1 with CMH among these Israelite communities? From a pro J2 Israelite patriarch point of view, I would guess that J1 with CMH may have joined the Jewish community centuries after the Assyrians had already removed the Northern tribes of Israel. In other words, J1 with CMH may have joined the Cohanim order only after the Babylonian destruction of the kingdom of Judea and the first temple, much the same way as R haplogroup joined the Levitical order among Ashkenazi Jews and haplogroup E joined the Sephardi Cohanim after the second destruction of the second temple.

              regards,

              bob
              Last edited by bob_chasm; 6 February 2007, 12:11 PM.

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              • #37
                I should clarify one point, the J subclade data that Coffman attributes to Behar (2003) are not in the actual Behar article but presumably obtained through supplements.
                The Coffman analysis indicates that around 87% of Ashkenazi Cohens were haplogroup J of which 48% were J1. Around 75% of Sephardic Cohens were J of which 58% were J1. It is difficult to "postdict" the ancient Cohen pattern from modern Ashkenazi and Sephardic populations. Both of these groups appear to reflect post diaspora effects particularly conversion. Prior to the migration to eastern Europe, Ashkenazim tended to live in areas where J2 was more common than J1 such as Byzantium, Greece and Italy. The picture is more complicated for Sephardic Jews (The use of the term Sephardic is itself problematic. Some use the term to refer to Spanish Jews only, others use it to refer to all non-Ashkenazi Jews--An issue that could produce differing haplogroup rates). At times they lived in areas such as North Africa and the Near East where J1 was common. At other times they lived in southern Europe where J2 is more common than J1. The discrepancy between Sephardim and Ashkenazim appears to reflect conversion in these different areas of residence.
                Others have pointed to population genetics processes that could affect the extrapolation back to ancient Cohens. In particular bottlenecks have been noted in European Jewish populations. Certainly the finding that Ashkenazi Levites are more than 50% Ria should give one pause in postdicting ancient Jewish populations.
                Last edited by josh w.; 6 February 2007, 02:41 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by josh w.
                  I should clarify one point, the J subclade data that Coffman attributes to Behar (2003) are not in the actual Behar article but presumably obtained through supplements.
                  The Coffman analysis indicates that around 87% of Ashkenazi Cohens were haplogroup J of which 48% were J1. Around 75% of Sephardic Cohens were J of which 58% were J1. It is difficult to "postdict" the ancient Cohen pattern from modern Ashkenazi and Sephardic populations. Both of these groups appear to reflect post diaspora effects particularly conversion. Prior to the migration to eastern Europe, Ashkenazim tended to live in areas where J2 was more common than J1 such as Byzantium, Greece and Italy. The picture is more complicated for Sephardic Jews (The use of the term Sephardic is itself problematic. Some use the term to refer to Spanish Jews only, others use it to refer to all non-Ashkenazi Jews--An issue that could produce differing haplogroup rates). At times they lived in areas such as North Africa and the Near East where J1 was common. At other times they lived in southern Europe where J2 is more common than J1. The discrepancy between Sephardim and Ashkenazim appears to reflect conversion in these different areas of residence.
                  Others have pointed to population genetics processes that could affect the extrapolation back to ancient Cohens. In particular bottlenecks have been noted in European Jewish populations. Certainly the finding that Ashkenazi Levites are more than 50% Ria should give one pause in postdicting ancient Jewish populations.

                  You make some good and interesting points here Josh. Do you think that a lot of the J2 among the Ashkenazim today was picked up in Southern Europe instead of the Middle East? I think that there most likely was a good amount of J2 among the original Jews of the Middle East but they could have picked a good amount up in Southern Europe as well. Like you said look at R1a. That haplogroup certainly seems to have been picked up in Europe.



                  Y-DNA: J2a*

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    87% of total Cohanim or Ashkenazi Cohanim

                    Originally posted by josh w.
                    The Coffman analysis indicates that around 87% of Ashkenazi Cohens were haplogroup J of which 48% were J1. Around 75% of Sephardic Cohens were J of which 58% were J1.
                    Here is what Coffman says on pg 16:

                    "Additionally, many other haplogroups among the Ashkenazim, and among the Cohanim in particular, appear to be of Israelite/Middle Eastern origin. According to Behar (2003), the Cohanim possess an unusually high frequency of haplogroup J in general, reported to comprise nearly 87% of the total
                    Cohanim results
                    . Among the Sephardim, the frequency of 75% is also notably high (Behar 2003)."

                    http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.pdf

                    josh: I have highlighted the section that suggested to me J was 87% of the total Cohanim results i.e. (among both Ashkenazi and Sephardi) and not just the Ashkenazi Cohanim. Please let me know if you are referring to the same article or another study.

                    regards,

                    bob

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Bob, in Behar's article the 75% figure referred to Sephardic Cohens and the 87% figure reffered to Ashkenazi Cohens. Sephardim in general had around 35% haplogroup J's.

                      J Man, that is the key question. Perhaps more subclade research on J2 will get more specific on geography as now appears to be the case with R1b. However to get reliable and stable correlations between subclade and geographical location alot more subjects are needed. The problem is that most 'western' databases have few J subjects (contrast the number of threads on R1b with those on J). Perhaps the J2 project will find something.

                      Josh

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by josh w.
                        Bob, in Behar's article the 75% figure referred to Sephardic Cohens and the 87% figure reffered to Ashkenazi Cohens. Sephardim in general had around 35% haplogroup J's.

                        J Man, that is the key question. Perhaps more subclade research on J2 will get more specific on geography as now appears to be the case with R1b. However to get reliable and stable correlations between subclade and geographical location alot more subjects are needed. The problem is that most 'western' databases have few J subjects (contrast the number of threads on R1b with those on J). Perhaps the J2 project will find something.

                        Josh

                        Yes I wish there were some more J2s around here too. Ya hopefully the J2 project will find something out. In some ways though it is cool being a minority around here



                        Y-DNA: J2a*



                        Y-DNA: J2a*

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                        • #42
                          In past years there has been mention of attempts to find Jewish J2 haplotypes and subclades. However I have not seen evidence that any of these projects bore fruit in the biblical sense.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            35% J

                            Originally posted by josh w.
                            Bob, in Behar's article the 75% figure referred to Sephardic Cohens and the 87% figure reffered to Ashkenazi Cohens. Sephardim in general had around 35% haplogroup J's. ...



                            Josh
                            josh: Thanks for the info. What do you speculate is the reason for twice as many J2 as J1 among the Sephardim?

                            According to Behar, as you said, J constitutes 35% of Sephardim. However, according to Coffman J1 is only 12% of Sephardim (pg 16: "Overall, J1 constitutes 14.6% of the Ashkenazim results and 11.9% of the Sephardic results (Semino et al. 2004)"). This would mean that the remaining 23% were J2.

                            regards


                            bob
                            Last edited by bob_chasm; 7 February 2007, 08:47 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Bob, sorry I guess I wasn't clear. Behar reported that around 75% of Sephardic Cohens were from haplogroup J. Behar did not present any data on subclades J1 or J2. Coffman reported that 58% of Behar's Sephardic Cohens were J1 out of the total of around 75% J. This would suggest that among Sephardic Cohens the ratio of J1 to J2 would be around three to one, presuming the presence of J* was minimal. In contrast among Ashkenazi Cohens, the ratio was more like five to four. I hope this is clearer.
                              As for the overall presence of J1 in the Sephardim, my guess is that the general population was more influenced by conversion than were the Cohens. It is still possible that some of the Cohen J1 was due to conversion in the Near East or North Africa. As I noted Sephardic Jews often resided in regions where J2 was more common than J1. Indeed it appears that R1b will turn out to be the modal haplogroup at least for Sephards living in western Europe.
                              Last edited by josh w.; 8 February 2007, 03:03 PM.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                PS, J subclade figures vary from study to study. For example, in a study of the general Ashkenazi population, Behar found around 20% were J1 with the same percentage for J2.
                                Josh

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