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  • Israel, DNA, Jews and the Alpha Male

    Genetics and DNA can be confusing in their simplest forms, but what confuses me more are the arguments over who is a Jew, who is not; who is a Levite, who is not; who is an Ashkenazi and who is not, etc? Why does one "group" consider itself to be superior to the other? Are not all Jews descendant from the same "alpha male"? Shouldn't all "Jews" have the same Y-DNA, or share the same Haplogroup? Why does FamilyTreeDNA discriminate against the Ashkenazi by not having a specific test, or if one is E3b1, why is the Haplogroup not titled? I have Jewish ancestry and descend from HELON, son of ELON, son of ZEBULON, son of JACOB [ISRAEL], etc. My family comes from that area known as Bilsk/Belsk in the Poltava Oblast, Ukraine, north of the Black Sea [aka: Sea of Ashkenaz, Euxine Sea], descending from the Royal Scyths - the HELONIANS. All my Y-DNA matches are Ashkenazi, we are the descendants of ZEBULON who was blessed to "live at the seashore, and he shall be a haven of ships" (Genesis 14:13). The theory that Holland "is a haven" for ships is erronous. A haven is a: shelter, a sanctuary, an inlet, cove, harbour - not an island. We are "true" descendants of JACOB; one of the lost Tribes of ISRAEL.

  • #2
    If you check the FTDNA library you will see that Jews come from a variety of haplogroups rather than a single genetic line. There are a number of reasons for this. Ancient Israel was quite varied genetically speaking. In addition many if not most Jews are Jews by conversion either in Israel, the surrounding Near East, or in Europe, west Asia or North Africa.
    I am not sure what you mean by bias against Ashkenazi? Do you mean that there is no test for being Ashkenazi? If so, the reason is that so far no one has identified Y dna lines that are unique to Ashkenazi. There are apparently unique Mtdna lines that that cover about 40% of Ashkenazi females but even in this case there is more than one haplogroup.

    Comment


    • #3
      How Religion governs DNA.

      About 150.000 years ago a series of small group of tribes, likely already of mixed haplogroups, left Africa, settled in the Levant, and then wandered East as far as Siberia , Indonesia, India, Australia.
      About 90,000 years ago another wandering began, this time Westwards, beginning a repopulation of what we call Europe.
      About 4000 years ago a Babylonian, Semitic-speaking man called Avram declared allegiance to a single God, an attractive idea that collected many converts from that time on.
      His tribe, (already of mixed haplogroups), called the God Jaweh and later those of this religion were called "Jawehs" or Jews.
      Now, cultural choices like religion or language do not confer any particular DNA format, although there is a tendency for clumping, especially if the religion discourages marriage with those of other religions.
      But 4000 years of avoidance of mixed marriage would not necessarily "purify" or redirect the already mixed (for over 150,000 years) Levantine-Caananite-Semitic-speaking haplogroups that Abraham's followers started out with.
      Therein lies the difficulty of expecting a peculiarly Jewish DNA identity. There are indeed Levantine DNA trends, but they are shared with manyother descendants of the Semitic-language migrations into the area, of ca 8000 years ago.
      The Ashkenazi tribe represents a singular, promoted mass conversion event of the early Middle Ages beginning a new relatively identifiable mix of two-source haplogroups in the southern Slavonic area, associated with but not exclusive to, that population's religions, mostly Jewish or Orthodox Christian.
      It is of interest that the followers of the Abraham-founded monotheism now includes some 2500 subsects, of which "Jewish" numbers a recognised five , "Islamic" over four, and "Christian" over 2000 . What this is doing to religion-denominated DNA identification can be imagined.

      Comment


      • #4
        As Kriwaczek notes in "Yiddish Civilization", scholars now recognize that the term Ashkenaz first refered to the Scythians. However the haplogroup composition of that area in modern times is somewhat different from the haplogroup composition of present day Ashkenazi Jews. In particular, there is less J1 and E3b on the Black Sea steppe compared to Ashkenazi haplogroups.

        Comment


        • #5
          J2-ery

          Whoever labeled Haplogroup J2 the "Jewish haplogroup" must be having a good laugh. Jewishness is a religion and can't be determined via DNA any more than Protestantism and Catholicism can be.

          It's only the novices who try to bait other posters with these kinds of remarks.

          Interested parties should refer to Ellen's article:
          http://www.jogg.info/11/coffman.pdf

          Comment


          • #6
            The Ashkenazi, Scythians and Zebulonites

            Originally posted by josh w.
            As Kriwaczek notes in "Yiddish Civilization", scholars now recognize that the term Ashkenaz first refered to the Scythians. However the haplogroup composition of that area in modern times is somewhat different from the haplogroup composition of present day Ashkenazi Jews. In particular, there is less J1 and E3b on the Black Sea steppe compared to Ashkenazi haplogroups.
            josh w, thanks for reminding of what I read previously regarding the Ashkenazi being first referred to as Scythians. So basically, one needs to look at the designation of a particular group of people relative to a particular time period of history, i.e. modern, historical, ancient, biblical. Adds credence to my argument that the Scythians who occupied that area north of the Black Sea were in fact Zebulonites - the descendants of Jacob [Israel] who eventually migrated westwards to Europe leaving behind only remnant communities. This might explain why there now are less J1 and E3b on the Black Sea steppe as you have asserted.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Son_Of_Israel
              Adds credence to my argument that the Scythians who occupied that area north of the Black Sea were in fact Zebulonites - the descendants of Jacob [Israel] who eventually migrated westwards to Europe leaving behind only remnant communities. This might explain why there now are less J1 and E3b on the Black Sea steppe as you have asserted.
              What are your sources considering the Black Sea Scythians as Zebulonites? As far as I know the Scythians were tribes of Indo-Iranian stock.

              Comment


              • #8
                Black Sea Scythians and the Zebulonites

                Originally posted by Irubak
                What are your sources considering the Black Sea Scythians as Zebulonites? As far as I know the Scythians were tribes of Indo-Iranian stock.
                Irubak:

                Source 1 is Herodotus who wrote of the ancient walled-city of Helon located jnorth of the Black Sea at the site of Bilsk/Belsk [just north of Poltava in the Ukraine] where today excavations are still underway - I have maps.

                Just search GOOGLE for "helon scythia" and you will find many lengthy articles including some that mention Indo-Iranian peoples.

                Source 2 is the Bible and genealogies contained there-in. Helon was the son of Elon, who was the son of Zebulon, who was the son of Jacob [Israel]. I have access to genealogical charts almost 200 years old that show the descent of Israel.

                Source 3 are various cartographic evidences that I have access to, these again are almost 200, in some cases almost 500 years old.

                Source 4 is my family history handed down through generations including knowledge of those curses placed on the Zebulonites and - believe it or not - Helonian scriptures handed down through the centuries on how to break curses.

                Source 5 is my own historical and allied studies undertaken over the last 25 years, but I am not in a position yet to publish any materials as I have not as yet completed my enquiries; and finally,

                Source 6 is the genetic evidence now at hand and what may be uncovered in the future.

                Source 7 - coupled with all of the above - is physical evidence, which if someone out there wanted to properly investigate would more than likely prove my arguments, and resolve other important issues.

                May be someone else out there has some other information to offer?

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hmmm, interesting..! I'm gonna make some search and will come back with a reply, but what I've found so far is that Ashkenaz is considered as a son of Gomer i.e. he is Japhetid and not Semit. How could it be explained?

                  Gomer #39 (20.Japheth11, 17.Noah10, 15.[Lamech]9, 14.Methuselah8, 13.[Enoch]7, 11.Jared6, 9.Mahalalel5, 7.Kenan4, 5.Enosh3, 3.Seth2, 1.Adam1) ref. Gen 10:1-2.

                  Children:

                  i Ashkenaz #81 ref. Gen 10:3.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    And just found the second reference:

                    40. Heth #71 (27.Canaan12, 19.Ham11, 17.Noah10, 15.[Lamech]9, 14.Methuselah8, 13.[Enoch]7, 11.Jared6, 9.Mahalalel5, 7.Kenan4, 5.Enosh3, 3.Seth2, 1.Adam1) ref. Gen 10:15. Heth is the progenitor of the Hitties. [Gn 23:10--Ephron, a son of Heth, is also Ephron the Hittite.]

                    Children:

                    53. i Sons of Heth #96.

                    54. ii Helon #97.

                    So according this Ashkenaz is Japhetid and Helon Hamit, how are they related to Semit Israelits?!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      According to Kriwaczek, the equation of Scythians with Ashkenaz is actually the result of a translation or copying mistake: the two terms have very similar spellings in Hebrew. A broad definition of Ashkenaz extended the usage of the term to eastern European Jews. However, except in the case of Ukrainian and Russian Jews, I doubt if anyone has scientific evidence that the majority of Ashkenazi Jews stem from the ancient Scythians. To the extent that the exceptions are similar to Scythians, they are similar to Indo-Iranians more than to Semites in terms of haplogroups.
                      Last edited by josh w.; 26 January 2007, 01:23 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        To get a flavor of regional differences, Khar'kov et al studied a sample of people in the eastern Ukraine. They found 44% R1a, !2% J ( mainly J2) and 4% E3b. In contrast, Behar et al studied Ashkenazi Jews. They found 9% Ria, 38% J and 17% E3b.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Son_Of_Israel
                          Genetics and DNA can be confusing in their simplest forms, but what confuses me more are the arguments over who is a Jew, who is not; who is a Levite, who is not; who is an Ashkenazi and who is not, etc? Why does one "group" consider itself to be superior to the other? Are not all Jews descendant from the same "alpha male"? Shouldn't all "Jews" have the same Y-DNA, or share the same Haplogroup? Why does FamilyTreeDNA discriminate against the Ashkenazi by not having a specific test, or if one is E3b1, why is the Haplogroup not titled? I have Jewish ancestry and descend from HELON, son of ELON, son of ZEBULON, son of JACOB [ISRAEL], etc. My family comes from that area known as Bilsk/Belsk in the Poltava Oblast, Ukraine, north of the Black Sea [aka: Sea of Ashkenaz, Euxine Sea], descending from the Royal Scyths - the HELONIANS. All my Y-DNA matches are Ashkenazi, we are the descendants of ZEBULON who was blessed to "live at the seashore, and he shall be a haven of ships" (Genesis 14:13). The theory that Holland "is a haven" for ships is erronous. A haven is a: shelter, a sanctuary, an inlet, cove, harbour - not an island. We are "true" descendants of JACOB; one of the lost Tribes of ISRAEL.
                          GENEALOGY AND GENETICS these things dont always answer questions some times they make new problems which need answers,I believe in the keltoi from the khumri in syrian territory.

                          your question is answered by matches i match askenazis over 50 % of my halopgroup /ethnic origins are askenazis,I have been told that they wee tested alot in the beginning.So what i still matched them. so somewhere in my past were askenzis, the keltois when they crossed the mts spread west because their first borns inherited all. It makes sence those that stayed in the steppes kept the rituals more then the ones in france. the bible says they didnt want to remember who they were. yet they kept some stuff in ground burials,olgham,superior horse warriors,..

                          but its like family stories one of the first things you learn is most arent true.

                          we are just the beggining some day soon 25 million will be tested. and the picture will be clearer


                          also if we did this in the 1920s i dont think all those germens when tested having askenazi matches would be so quick in starting those ovens

                          this should be the way we look at dafhur and e3bs

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by josh w.
                            If you check the FTDNA library you will see that Jews come from a variety of haplogroups rather than a single genetic line. There are a number of reasons for this. Ancient Israel was quite varied genetically speaking. In addition many if not most Jews are Jews by conversion either in Israel, the surrounding Near East, or in Europe, west Asia or North Africa.
                            I am not sure what you mean by bias against Ashkenazi? Do you mean that there is no test for being Ashkenazi? If so, the reason is that so far no one has identified Y dna lines that are unique to Ashkenazi. There are apparently unique Mtdna lines that that cover about 40% of Ashkenazi females but even in this case there is more than one haplogroup.
                            most bigots today aryans,identity ect belief systems are based on askenazis not being jews. hitler believed that. thus they didnt kill gods people but a fake jew as if the exodus from eygpt was pure. josephs wife was an eygptian princess ect.

                            thats the bias

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Irubak
                              Hmmm, interesting..! I'm gonna make some search and will come back with a reply, but what I've found so far is that Ashkenaz is considered as a son of Gomer i.e. he is Japhetid and not Semit. How could it be explained?

                              Gomer #39 (20.Japheth11, 17.Noah10, 15.[Lamech]9, 14.Methuselah8, 13.[Enoch]7, 11.Jared6, 9.Mahalalel5, 7.Kenan4, 5.Enosh3, 3.Seth2, 1.Adam1) ref. Gen 10:1-2.

                              Children:

                              i Ashkenaz #81 ref. Gen 10:3.

                              the keltoi arrived at the point the khumri crossed the mts.
                              khumri is from omri assyrians took the name from one of the last kings of the house of israel. [ 10 tribes] they both numbered in the millions what a coincidence

                              Comment

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