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  • R1b1c - Please help! Looking for Origin

    Hello everyone - I'm new to the forum and I've been tested as R1b1c; and I live in the United States (Indiana).

    I have quite a few questions that follow!

    I'm very interested in the Celtic or Iberian study that Ft-DNA has started. Does anyone know if any Y- DNA testing that has been done on any skeletal remains of any Stonehenge people? For example the "Amesbury Archer" skeleton that was found a few years ago buried about 2 miles from Stonehenge? I can’t imagine DNA testing not being done on the “Amesbury Archer”, or other significant archeological discoveries.

    I think such testing should be done on all the “significant archaeological sites”. For example DNA testing of any remains that might be in the prehistoric "megalithic tombs" found in Ireland and other places throughout Europe. I think scientist could discover so much about the early people if more DNA testing would be done. You hear quite a bit in the news recently about sequencing the whole Neanderthal genome. But I don't see or hear any news about DNA studies of any early prehistoric Celts, or Cro Magnon bones. Surely some scientists are doing some of these studies?? Does anyone have any knowledge of Y-DNA and Haplogroup testing of any other skeletal remains that would represent early Celtic people? And if the studies exist where can a person find the results of the test? Are there any published reports of such testing?

    In email correspondence with Bennett Greenspan (president of Ft-DNA), wrote me this about R1b1c.

    “R1b1c is the quintessential Western European male who arrived at or just before the time that the Neanderthals died out. They lived in all of Europe until the last Ice Age forced them to retreat south to Spain, or over the Alps into Italy. ...it is certainly true that the R1b males retreated to Spain during the Ice Age so the source of modern R1b is either Northern Spain for Northern Italy."

    Wikipedia - gives the following definition of R1b1c.

    R1b1c

    “Nearly all present-day Europeans with the M343 marker also have the P25 and M269 markers. These markers define the R1b1c subclade.
    This subgroup probably originated in Central Asia and is believed by some to have been widespread in Europe before the last Ice Age, and associated with the Aurignacian culture (32,000 - 21,000 BC) of the Cro-Magnon people, the first modern humans to enter Europe. The Cro-Magnons were the first documented human artists, making sophisticated cave paintings. Famous sites include Lascaux in France, Cueva de las Monedas in Spain and Valley of Foz Côa in Portugal (the largest open-air site in Europe). It is well to recall, however, that the identification of Y-haplogroup R1b with the Cro-Magnons of the Aurignacian culture is highly speculative and controversial.”

    Also, I believe on rootsweb (DNA discussion) I found that my markers match a designation they called R1b DYS19=15 Haplotype #16. In the description below (Rootsweb) - they say that this Haplotype designation may have come to Britain with the "prehistoric Iberians". Who are they? Are they prehistoric Celts? Has anyone heard of this designation, or know more about it? I'm copying the Rootsweb information below:

    Rootsweb - (R1b DYS19=15 Haplotype #16)

    “The haplotype has multiple matches in the British Isles, Iberia and Northern Italy, and a few high frequency matches in the Netherlands and the Rhineland. Matches in Germany, Eastern Europe or Scandinavia are relatively few. This haplotype may have come to Britain with the prehistoric Iberians, or with later Celtic arrivals, and has probably been native to Britain since well before Roman times.”

    I know very little about how to interpret my results. I believe, I match the Atlantic modal in all values, except for my DYS19 = 15 (instead of a 14 value). I guess my DYS19=15 value may represent a mutation from the value of 14? I also have a null value (0) at DYS 425. Has anyone seen anything interesting written about null values for DYS425; or what it might mean in relation to R1b1c individuals?

    So if my McGuire ancestors were R1b1c from out of Ireland or Scotland - where would they have come from prior to that; from "prehistoric Iberian"? Or how would the origins of my early ancestors be classified; other than simply R1b1c? Are they Celts, Prehistoric Iberians, or what?

    As I stated earlier - I know very little about any of this, but I would like to read and learn more about it. I would be interested in hearing any thoughts or evaluations that anyone might be able to give concerning my test results below. Thanks.

    My Y-67 markers and haplo testing results:

    R1b1c: M173+ M207+ M269+ M343+ P25+ M126- M153- M160- M18- M222- M37- M65- M73- P66- SRY2627-

    FT-DNA DYS markers

    Locus DYS# Alleles

    1 393 13
    2 390 24
    3 19 15
    4 391 11
    5 385a 11
    6 385b 15
    7 426 12
    8 388 12
    9 439 13
    10 389-1 13
    11 392 13
    12 389-2 29
    13 458 17
    14 459a 9
    15 459b 10
    16 455 11
    17 454 11
    18 447 25
    19 437 15
    20 448 19
    21 449 28
    22 464a 15
    23 464b 15
    24 464c 17
    25 464d 17
    26 460 11
    27 GATA H4 11
    28 YCA II a 19
    29 YCA II b 23
    30 456 16
    31 607 15
    32 576 19
    33 570 19
    34 CDY a 37
    35 CDY b 39
    36 442 12
    37 438 10
    38 531 11
    39 578 9
    40 395S1a 15
    41 395S1b 16
    42 590 8
    43 537 10
    44 641 10
    45 472 8
    46 406S1 11
    47 511 9
    48 425 0
    49 413a 22
    50 413b 23
    51 557 16
    52 594 10
    53 436 12
    54 490 12
    55 534 16
    56 450 8
    57 444 12
    58 481 23
    59 520 20
    60 446 13
    61 617 12
    62 568 11
    63 487 13
    64 572 11
    65 640 11
    66 492 12
    67 565 12

  • #2
    Originally posted by R1b1c_Indiana
    Hello everyone - I'm new to the forum and I've been tested as R1b1c; and I live in the United States (Indiana).

    I have quite a few questions that follow!

    I'm very interested in the Celtic or Iberian study that Ft-DNA has started. Does anyone know if any Y- DNA testing that has been done on any skeletal remains of any Stonehenge people? For example the "Amesbury Archer" skeleton that was found a few years ago buried about 2 miles from Stonehenge? I can’t imagine DNA testing not being done on the “Amesbury Archer”, or other significant archeological discoveries.
    I think in the case of ancient remains, mtDNA is used. Im not sure that they can obtain any/enough Y Chromosome for testing.

    ISOGG have a section with results from ancient and famous historical remains tested. The Iceman of the Alps, Cheddar man, The Romanovs etc...

    I am in the East Anglia Project, which has mtDNA results for abt 17 bodies from a 800-1000 yr old gravesite in East Anglia.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by R1b1c_Indiana
      I know very little about how to interpret my results. I believe, I match the Atlantic modal in all values, except for my DYS19 = 15 (instead of a 14 value). I guess my DYS19=15 value may represent a mutation from the value of 14? I also have a null value (0) at DYS 425. Has anyone seen anything interesting written about null values for DYS425; or what it might mean in relation to R1b1c individuals?
      Could you please upload your results, semi-automatically, into the public Ysearch database, via the hyperlink on your Y-DNA Matches tab? Frankly, it is too laborious for us forum readers to enter all 67 markers manually just to give you an interpretation. If you have privacy concerns, feel free to change the name to 'Name Withheld'.

      Your DYS425=Null is indeed unusual and interesting, but I don't think anyone has come to any firm conclusions about it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by lgmayka
        Your DYS425=Null is indeed unusual and interesting, but I don't think anyone has come to any firm conclusions about it.
        If he had DYS492=13, DYS390=23, DYS447=24 and DYS40=10, which are all off the general R1b modal values, plus his DYS425=null, he would be part of a cluster of several paternal lines from diverse geographical origins, including Scotland, England, Belgium, France and Italy. This cluster is probably all S21+ and may even be a subclade of S21.

        But since he lacks those values I cited above, he probably just has some sort of recLOH event involving DYF371 - DYS 425 is one of the multi-copy markers associated with DYF371. However, that null 425 is useful in sorting out known close relatives, just as any recLOH is.

        Mike Maddi

        Comment


        • #5
          r1b1c Origin - Ysearch id

          Thanks for the replies - My Ysearch User ID is ECD9N.

          Comment


          • #6
            I was also given the R1b1c hg. I tested 37 markers, but have had no matches. My paternal line came from Spain's Canary Islands. It is obvious this hg arrived there from mainland Spain. Beyond that, I have no idea.

            Comment


            • #7
              David Wilson, the administrator of the "R1b1c7 Project" wrote me an email a while back, with some comments about my test results. I believe though - that David wasn't aware of my null value at DYS425. I say this because I don’t believe null values will show up while using Y-search.

              I've copied below some of David's comments.

              "I see a couple of interesting marker values in your haplotype compared to the modal values for the haplogroup. You have DYS19=15 instead of 14; 385=11-15 instead of 11-14; 439=13 instead of 12; 413=22-23 instead of 23-23; and a couple of others as well. That's a fairly distinctive pattern. It seems to me the DYS19 value wanders between 14 and 15 in McGuires, so that may not be indicative of deeper origins. But there is a minor cluster of 11-15 at 385 in Scotland, and the interesting marker value 22-23 at 413 also seems to appear in individuals with Scottish or Northern English surnames."

              Would there be anybody else, who might be able to share some additional insights about the interesting marker values or patterns that David pointed out above? Also any other comments that might point to my ancestor's possible origins prior to British Isles? Do any of my test results indicate a specific geographical area; or can further refinement be made? Any additional comments about the DYS 425 null value?

              Thanks.

              My id is ECD9N (y-search)

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by R1b1c_Indiana
                David Wilson, the administrator of the "R1b1c7 Project" wrote me an email a while back, with some comments about my test results. I believe though - that David wasn't aware of my null value at DYS425. I say this because I don’t believe null values will show up while using Y-search.

                I've copied below some of David's comments.

                "I see a couple of interesting marker values in your haplotype compared to the modal values for the haplogroup. You have DYS19=15 instead of 14; 385=11-15 instead of 11-14; 439=13 instead of 12; 413=22-23 instead of 23-23; and a couple of others as well. That's a fairly distinctive pattern. It seems to me the DYS19 value wanders between 14 and 15 in McGuires, so that may not be indicative of deeper origins. But there is a minor cluster of 11-15 at 385 in Scotland, and the interesting marker value 22-23 at 413 also seems to appear in individuals with Scottish or Northern English surnames."

                Would there be anybody else, who might be able to share some additional insights about the interesting marker values or patterns that David pointed out above? Also any other comments that might point to my ancestor's possible origins prior to British Isles? Do any of my test results indicate a specific geographical area; or can further refinement be made? Any additional comments about the DYS 425 null value?

                Thanks.

                My id is ECD9N (y-search)
                Hello R1b1c_Indiana,
                I am wondering the same thing since I too have DYS19=15. Although people speculate that I am S21+ or R1b1c9* F3.. Most DYS19 values of 15 I've seen belong to ht35 (Eastern R1b). Again, I am looking for the same thing you are.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Thanks Downer101 for your note.

                  This forum sure seems pretty quite. I was hoping to get a little more input from individuals. With so many R1b's supposedly really R1b1c's, you would think that there would be lots of feedback on such a common Haplogroup?

                  Downer101, my R1b1c Haplo should be of Western European origin instead of the Eastern variety. When I had written Bennett Greenspan some time ago about my results, he thought my DYS19=15 value was probably simply a mutation from the value of 14.

                  Does anybody know of any good books or video's about the genetic origins of the British Isles? Or the Celtic people?

                  -thanks everyone for your comments.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by R1b1c_Indiana

                    Does anybody know of any good books or video's about the genetic origins of the British Isles? Or the Celtic people?
                    Stephen Oppenheimer's new book, "The Origins of the British", covers both of those areas. I found it a good read, full of useful information. It has generated some controversy, but you'd probably find it useful as a fairly thorough treatment of the topic.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      speaking of R1b1c

                      I just got my SNP results back and it is R1b1c. What markers determine that? Because a lot of my comparative results are close to the I haplogroup. And does the 390 marker have any value other than to confuse things?

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        For R1b1c, you should be positive (I believe the term is "derived") for the following SNP's:

                        M207+ (R)
                        M173+ (R1)
                        M343+ (R1b)
                        P25+ (R1b1)
                        M269+ (R1b1c)

                        There are subgroups, R1b1c1 through R1b1c8 (that FTDNA test's for), so if they didn't report + for those, then you're not those. There are additional ones from another company, to test for R1b1c9(a and b) and R1b1c10. You would today, have to test with that company to know about those.

                        The full ISOGG Haplogroup R tree is here: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Similar results to R1b1c_Indiana

                          Though they're rather different overall, my dad's 67-marker and SNP results share some similarities to R1b1c_Indiana's: null at DYS425, 11-15 at DYS 385a-b, 22-23 at DYS413a-b, and 14 at DYS439; he's also R1b1c.

                          Because my family identified themselves as Irish with no mention of Scottish or English roots, I've been surprised that my dad's closest matches seem to point toward roots in Scotland, Wales, or England (closest genetic distance is 5). Further, David Wilson suggested that R1b1c-Indiana might have links to Scotland and/or northern England based on some of the marker values he shares with my dad.

                          Our family name is Collins; a few U.S. records suggest the name may have been Callan when they first arrived. We've been told the name was Anglicised in the U.S. Some evidence shows the family was in Roscommon, Westmeath, or Meath from 1825-1835 and possibly in Cork during another period.

                          Does anyone see something in my dad's results that might clarify the Irish/Scottish/English question? His ysearch number is 7R5DB.

                          Thanks,
                          Cathy

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by R1b1c_Indiana

                            This forum sure seems pretty quite. I was hoping to get a little more input from individuals. With so many R1b's supposedly really R1b1c's, you would think that there would be lots of feedback on such a common Haplogroup?
                            You would think so, but DYS19=15s are apparently rare. My father's haplotype(?) didn't exactly match any of those on the rootsweb site:

                            19=15
                            389i=13
                            389ii=29
                            390=24
                            391=10
                            392=13
                            393=13
                            385a=11
                            385b=13

                            This differs by 1 from Haplotype #9 (391=11), Haplotype #10 (391=12), Haplotype #12 (389ii=28), and Haplotype #18 (390=25).

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Origins of R1b1c

                              Cathy,

                              What you are seeing is the poor state of DNA analysis related to population genetics. In short, there is very little definitive, reliable information about the geography of populations that has been obtained from STR and SNP data.

                              With broad populations (e.g., R1b, R1b1) and very ancient timeframes (>10,000 years) then some general conclusions are possible. However, some prodigous posters insist on trying to define very specific subclades (R1b1c6, R1b1c7, R1b1c8, etc.) and draw conclusions from them. For example, for the over 500 SNP tested people in Charles Kerchner's R1b project and 500 people who have logged results with John McEwan, the following is the breakdown by the hypothetical subclades:


                              Samples Identified by R1b Subclade (as of early August)
                              Kerchner McEwan Dist.
                              Sub Clade SNP-Tested SNP-Tested
                              R1b 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
                              R1b1 78 15.0% 23 3.9%
                              R1b1b 2 0.4% 2 0.3%
                              R1b1c 402 77.5% 222 37.6%
                              R1b1c* 61 10.3%
                              R1b1c1 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
                              R1b1c2 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
                              R1b1c3 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
                              R1b1c4 2 0.4% 4 0.7%
                              R1b1c5 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
                              R1b1c6 8 1.5% 23 3.9%
                              R1b1c7 27 5.2% 127 21.5%
                              R1b1c8 0 0.0% 1 0.2%
                              R1b1c9 92 15.6%
                              R1b1c10 34 5.8%
                              R1b1c11 1 0.2%
                              #Samples 519 590


                              Given the miniscule observed samples of the hypothetical R1b1cx subclades, it isn't surprising that not much can be definitely said about these populations.

                              In another example, David Faux has published a long 92 page Treatise on the "Cimbri Nation of Jutland". This work makes assertions about the R1b1c10 (S28) but recognizes that studies of this area have been speculative and based upon small sample sizes. You can see the volume of data that Dr. Faux's work is based on at:
                              http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm

                              Similarly, other prodigious posters on "Kens List" have subdivided Haplogroup I down to very fine grained subclades based upon Founders Haplotypes. These authors makes assertions about the certain populations based upon small samples of unsubstantiated, self-reported data on YSearch.org.

                              Many people make assertions on the DNA-genealogy-List and on personal web sites about where certain sub-clades come from, but it's all speculation.

                              At the opposite end of the spectrum, some authors such as Sykes and Oppenheimer try to draw general conclusions - not from small amounts of highly specific data -- but rather from large samples of more general data. This is equally fraught with criticism.

                              In any case, from the data that you posted, I believe that you would fall into what oppenheimer would call - Subclade R1b-13. Oppenheimer writes this about this subclade:
                              The R1b-13 clan is a sub-cluster of the Mesolithic Basque ancestor "Ruy“ (R1b-10).

                              R1b-13 arrived in Britain during the Mesolithic 10,000 years ago and subsequently gave rise to your clan through re-expansion around 8,000 years ago, during the Late Mesolithic.

                              The map shown in his book shows how clan R1b-13 expanded northwards from the South-West European refuge during the Mesolithic. The gene flow follows the ancient extended coastline, which had now opened up to show the southern part of the English Channel. In this instance south-coastal England, Cornwall, Cumbria and Wales were targeted (arrows indicate direction of gene flow based on the gene tree and geography.)

                              caveat emptor <g>

                              Comment

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