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**rivergirl** · 9 January 2007, 05:09 PM

Originally posted by R1b1c_Indiana

Hello everyone - I'm new to the forum and I've been tested as R1b1c; and I live in the United States (Indiana).

I have quite a few questions that follow!

I'm very interested in the Celtic or Iberian study that Ft-DNA has started. Does anyone know if any Y- DNA testing that has been done on any skeletal remains of any Stonehenge people? For example the "Amesbury Archer" skeleton that was found a few years ago buried about 2 miles from Stonehenge? I cant imagine DNA testing not being done on the Amesbury Archer, or other significant archeological discoveries.

I think in the case of ancient remains, mtDNA is used. Im not sure that they can obtain any/enough Y Chromosome for testing.

ISOGG have a section with results from ancient and famous historical remains tested. The Iceman of the Alps, Cheddar man, The Romanovs etc...

I am in the East Anglia Project, which has mtDNA results for abt 17 bodies from a 800-1000 yr old gravesite in East Anglia.

**lgmayka** · 9 January 2007, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by R1b1c_Indiana

I know very little about how to interpret my results. I believe, I match the Atlantic modal in all values, except for my DYS19 = 15 (instead of a 14 value). I guess my DYS19=15 value may represent a mutation from the value of 14? I also have a null value (0) at DYS 425. Has anyone seen anything interesting written about null values for DYS425; or what it might mean in relation to R1b1c individuals?

Could you please upload your results, semi-automatically, into the public Ysearch database, via the hyperlink on your Y-DNA Matches tab? Frankly, it is too laborious for us forum readers to enter all 67 markers manually just to give you an interpretation. If you have privacy concerns, feel free to change the name to 'Name Withheld'.

Your DYS425=Null is indeed unusual and interesting, but I don't think anyone has come to any firm conclusions about it.

**MMaddi** · 9 January 2007, 08:16 PM

Originally posted by lgmayka

Your DYS425=Null is indeed unusual and interesting, but I don't think anyone has come to any firm conclusions about it.

If he had DYS492=13, DYS390=23, DYS447=24 and DYS40=10, which are all off the general R1b modal values, plus his DYS425=null, he would be part of a cluster of several paternal lines from diverse geographical origins, including Scotland, England, Belgium, France and Italy. This cluster is probably all S21+ and may even be a subclade of S21.

But since he lacks those values I cited above, he probably just has some sort of recLOH event involving DYF371 - DYS 425 is one of the multi-copy markers associated with DYF371. However, that null 425 is useful in sorting out known close relatives, just as any recLOH is.

Mike Maddi

**R1b1c_Indiana** · 9 January 2007, 08:36 PM

r1b1c Origin - Ysearch id

Thanks for the replies - My Ysearch User ID is ECD9N.

**juan carlos** · 10 January 2007, 01:02 AM

I was also given the R1b1c hg. I tested 37 markers, but have had no matches. My paternal line came from Spain's Canary Islands. It is obvious this hg arrived there from mainland Spain. Beyond that, I have no idea.

**R1b1c_Indiana** · 11 January 2007, 07:57 AM

David Wilson, the administrator of the "R1b1c7 Project" wrote me an email a while back, with some comments about my test results. I believe though - that David wasn't aware of my null value at DYS425. I say this because I dont believe null values will show up while using Y-search.

I've copied below some of David's comments.

"I see a couple of interesting marker values in your haplotype compared to the modal values for the haplogroup. You have DYS19=15 instead of 14; 385=11-15 instead of 11-14; 439=13 instead of 12; 413=22-23 instead of 23-23; and a couple of others as well. That's a fairly distinctive pattern. It seems to me the DYS19 value wanders between 14 and 15 in McGuires, so that may not be indicative of deeper origins. But there is a minor cluster of 11-15 at 385 in Scotland, and the interesting marker value 22-23 at 413 also seems to appear in individuals with Scottish or Northern English surnames."

Would there be anybody else, who might be able to share some additional insights about the interesting marker values or patterns that David pointed out above? Also any other comments that might point to my ancestor's possible origins prior to British Isles? Do any of my test results indicate a specific geographical area; or can further refinement be made? Any additional comments about the DYS 425 null value?

Thanks.

My id is ECD9N (y-search)

**Downer101** · 14 January 2007, 01:07 PM

Originally posted by R1b1c_Indiana

David Wilson, the administrator of the "R1b1c7 Project" wrote me an email a while back, with some comments about my test results. I believe though - that David wasn't aware of my null value at DYS425. I say this because I dont believe null values will show up while using Y-search.

I've copied below some of David's comments.

"I see a couple of interesting marker values in your haplotype compared to the modal values for the haplogroup. You have DYS19=15 instead of 14; 385=11-15 instead of 11-14; 439=13 instead of 12; 413=22-23 instead of 23-23; and a couple of others as well. That's a fairly distinctive pattern. It seems to me the DYS19 value wanders between 14 and 15 in McGuires, so that may not be indicative of deeper origins. But there is a minor cluster of 11-15 at 385 in Scotland, and the interesting marker value 22-23 at 413 also seems to appear in individuals with Scottish or Northern English surnames."

Would there be anybody else, who might be able to share some additional insights about the interesting marker values or patterns that David pointed out above? Also any other comments that might point to my ancestor's possible origins prior to British Isles? Do any of my test results indicate a specific geographical area; or can further refinement be made? Any additional comments about the DYS 425 null value?

Thanks.

My id is ECD9N (y-search)

Hello R1b1c_Indiana,
I am wondering the same thing since I too have DYS19=15. Although people speculate that I am S21+ or R1b1c9* F3.. Most DYS19 values of 15 I've seen belong to ht35 (Eastern R1b). Again, I am looking for the same thing you are.

**R1b1c_Indiana** · 14 January 2007, 09:00 PM

Thanks Downer101 for your note.

This forum sure seems pretty quite. I was hoping to get a little more input from individuals. With so many R1b's supposedly really R1b1c's, you would think that there would be lots of feedback on such a common Haplogroup?

Downer101, my R1b1c Haplo should be of Western European origin instead of the Eastern variety. When I had written Bennett Greenspan some time ago about my results, he thought my DYS19=15 value was probably simply a mutation from the value of 14.

Does anybody know of any good books or video's about the genetic origins of the British Isles? Or the Celtic people?

-thanks everyone for your comments.

**Rick** · 14 January 2007, 10:32 PM

Originally posted by R1b1c_Indiana

Does anybody know of any good books or video's about the genetic origins of the British Isles? Or the Celtic people?

Stephen Oppenheimer's new book, "The Origins of the British", covers both of those areas. I found it a good read, full of useful information. It has generated some controversy, but you'd probably find it useful as a fairly thorough treatment of the topic.

**TheLostMartin** · 15 January 2007, 10:02 AM

speaking of R1b1c

I just got my SNP results back and it is R1b1c. What markers determine that? Because a lot of my comparative results are close to the I haplogroup. And does the 390 marker have any value other than to confuse things?

**Paulie** · 15 January 2007, 12:57 PM

For R1b1c, you should be positive (I believe the term is "derived") for the following SNP's:

M207+ (R)
M173+ (R1)
M343+ (R1b)
P25+ (R1b1)
M269+ (R1b1c)

There are subgroups, R1b1c1 through R1b1c8 (that FTDNA test's for), so if they didn't report + for those, then you're not those. There are additional ones from another company, to test for R1b1c9(a and b) and R1b1c10. You would today, have to test with that company to know about those.

The full ISOGG Haplogroup R tree is here: http://www.isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_HapgrpR.html

**Cathy** · 2 February 2007, 09:43 PM

Similar results to R1b1c_Indiana

Though they're rather different overall, my dad's 67-marker and SNP results share some similarities to R1b1c_Indiana's: null at DYS425, 11-15 at DYS 385a-b, 22-23 at DYS413a-b, and 14 at DYS439; he's also R1b1c.

Because my family identified themselves as Irish with no mention of Scottish or English roots, I've been surprised that my dad's closest matches seem to point toward roots in Scotland, Wales, or England (closest genetic distance is 5). Further, David Wilson suggested that R1b1c-Indiana might have links to Scotland and/or northern England based on some of the marker values he shares with my dad.

Our family name is Collins; a few U.S. records suggest the name may have been Callan when they first arrived. We've been told the name was Anglicised in the U.S. Some evidence shows the family was in Roscommon, Westmeath, or Meath from 1825-1835 and possibly in Cork during another period.

Does anyone see something in my dad's results that might clarify the Irish/Scottish/English question? His ysearch number is 7R5DB.

Thanks,
Cathy

**jan** · 23 September 2007, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by R1b1c_Indiana

This forum sure seems pretty quite. I was hoping to get a little more input from individuals. With so many R1b's supposedly really R1b1c's, you would think that there would be lots of feedback on such a common Haplogroup?

You would think so, but DYS19=15s are apparently rare. My father's haplotype(?) didn't exactly match any of those on the rootsweb site:

19=15
389i=13
389ii=29
390=24
391=10
392=13
393=13
385a=11
385b=13

This differs by 1 from Haplotype #9 (391=11), Haplotype #10 (391=12), Haplotype #12 (389ii=28), and Haplotype #18 (390=25).

**K. Campbell** · 28 September 2007, 10:25 AM

Origins of R1b1c

Cathy,

What you are seeing is the poor state of DNA analysis related to population genetics. In short, there is very little definitive, reliable information about the geography of populations that has been obtained from STR and SNP data.

With broad populations (e.g., R1b, R1b1) and very ancient timeframes (>10,000 years) then some general conclusions are possible. However, some prodigous posters insist on trying to define very specific subclades (R1b1c6, R1b1c7, R1b1c8, etc.) and draw conclusions from them. For example, for the over 500 SNP tested people in Charles Kerchner's R1b project and 500 people who have logged results with John McEwan, the following is the breakdown by the hypothetical subclades:

Samples Identified by R1b Subclade (as of early August)
Kerchner McEwan Dist.
Sub Clade SNP-Tested SNP-Tested
R1b 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
R1b1 78 15.0% 23 3.9%
R1b1b 2 0.4% 2 0.3%
R1b1c 402 77.5% 222 37.6%
R1b1c* 61 10.3%
R1b1c1 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
R1b1c2 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
R1b1c3 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
R1b1c4 2 0.4% 4 0.7%
R1b1c5 0 0.0% 0 0.0%
R1b1c6 8 1.5% 23 3.9%
R1b1c7 27 5.2% 127 21.5%
R1b1c8 0 0.0% 1 0.2%
R1b1c9 92 15.6%
R1b1c10 34 5.8%
R1b1c11 1 0.2%
#Samples 519 590

Given the miniscule observed samples of the hypothetical R1b1cx subclades, it isn't surprising that not much can be definitely said about these populations.

In another example, David Faux has published a long 92 page Treatise on the "Cimbri Nation of Jutland". This work makes assertions about the R1b1c10 (S28) but recognizes that studies of this area have been speculative and based upon small sample sizes. You can see the volume of data that Dr. Faux's work is based on at:

davidkfaux.org - davidkfaux Resources and Information.

http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Data.htm

davidkfaux.org is your first and best source for all of the information you’re looking for. From general topics to more of what you would expect to find here, davidkfaux.org has it all. We hope you find what you are searching for!

Similarly, other prodigious posters on "Kens List" have subdivided Haplogroup I down to very fine grained subclades based upon Founders Haplotypes. These authors makes assertions about the certain populations based upon small samples of unsubstantiated, self-reported data on YSearch.org.

Many people make assertions on the DNA-genealogy-List and on personal web sites about where certain sub-clades come from, but it's all speculation.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, some authors such as Sykes and Oppenheimer try to draw general conclusions - not from small amounts of highly specific data -- but rather from large samples of more general data. This is equally fraught with criticism.

In any case, from the data that you posted, I believe that you would fall into what oppenheimer would call - Subclade R1b-13. Oppenheimer writes this about this subclade:

The R1b-13 clan is a sub-cluster of the Mesolithic Basque ancestor "Ruy (R1b-10).

R1b-13 arrived in Britain during the Mesolithic 10,000 years ago and subsequently gave rise to your clan through re-expansion around 8,000 years ago, during the Late Mesolithic.

The map shown in his book shows how clan R1b-13 expanded northwards from the South-West European refuge during the Mesolithic. The gene flow follows the ancient extended coastline, which had now opened up to show the southern part of the English Channel. In this instance south-coastal England, Cornwall, Cumbria and Wales were targeted (arrows indicate direction of gene flow based on the gene tree and geography.)

caveat emptor <g>

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R1b1c - Please help! Looking for Origin

R1b1c - Please help! Looking for Origin

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