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Genocide and Y lines extinction

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  • Arch Yeomans
    replied
    Possible... but not probable

    Originally posted by robe3b
    I am aware that this is a very painful and delicate issue, but I have decided to raise it because of its scientific implications.
    I wonder whether a catastrophic historical event as the nazi genocide of the European Jews, might have caused the extinction of some, or even many, Jewish Y lines.

    I would think it would be quite difficult to extinguish a haplogroup/haplotype unless it would have been a very small group of people going back literally several thousands of years ago. I think nature itself would do a better job in successfully eliminating a haplogroup/haplotype than man could ever do if he was to target a specific one. Especially in later in time as the population is a much larger one and more widespread. In order for humans to succesfully go an eliminate a haplogroup/haplotype we'd have to go find an indigenous type of people who have never migrated and stay within a 20 mile radius, and then round 'em all up for a mass execution. Just doing that would not really give us a guarantee that a specific haplotype/haplogroup is exterminated. Some may have slipped away in the effort to rounding 'em up. Sick as it may seem, it's just doesn't seem probable that later events in history could be succesful at eliminating a race/haplogroup/haplotype. The logistics in doing so would in no doubt be complicated enough. Whatever the case, it's proven that madmen did try, such as the case with Hitler, Hussein, etc. So it's possible that nuts like them several thousands of years ago tried, and may have succeeded.

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  • robe3b
    replied
    Originally posted by PDHOTLEN
    I suspect that it was easier for female mtDNA lines to survive through the turmoils of our ancient past than some male lines. What happens when one tribe conquers another? The males were either killed in the battle, or were relegated to slavery; while the females were used as breeding stock. At least that must've happened now and then, human nature being what it is.
    It seems to me that both Jewish men and women were equally murdered by the nazis. The following is quoted from the HOLOCAUST ENCYCLOPEDIA:


    About six million Jews died in the Holocaust. Jewish communities across Europe were shattered. Many of those who survived were determined to leave Europe and start new lives in Israel or the United States. The population shifts brought on by the Holocaust and by Jewish emigration were astounding.

    According to the American Jewish Yearbook, the Jewish population of Europe was about 9.5 million in 1933. In 1950, the Jewish population of Europe was about 3.5 million. In 1933, 60 percent of all Jews lived in Europe. In 1950, most Jews (51 percent) lived in the Americas (North and South combined), while only a third of the world's Jewish population lived in Europe.


    The Jewish communities of eastern Europe were devastated. In 1933, Poland had the largest Jewish population in Europe, numbering over three million. By 1950, the Jewish population of Poland was reduced to about 45,000. The Soviet Union had the largest remaining Jewish population, with some two million Jews. Romania's Jewish population fell from about 980,000 in 1933 to about 280,000 in 1950. Most of these demographic losses were due to the Holocaust, the rest to postwar emigration from Europe.

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  • fmoakes
    replied
    Originally posted by Romany777
    [I]Not only must've happened - but apparently did. I believe that some 8% of Y chromosomes in parts of Asia can be traced to one man and those who are looking into this have assumed that it must be Genghis Khan whose modus operandi was to kill all the men and rape all the women.
    Actually, it would seem that the "one man" would have been a common ancestor to Genghis and most of his ranking men. I'm sure rape and pillage was not restricted to just the Khan.

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  • kaybee930
    replied
    Don't forget that the surviving women were also frequently taken along, one reason for different mtDNA migration patterns.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    Some "Successful" Y Chromosomes

    The males were either killed in the battle, or were relegated to slavery; while the females were used as breeding stock. At least that must've happened now and then, human nature being what it is.

    Not only must've happened - but apparently did. I believe that some 8% of Y chromosomes in parts of Asia can be traced to one man and those who are looking into this have assumed that it must be Genghis Khan whose modus operandi was to kill all the men and rape all the women.

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  • PDHOTLEN
    replied
    Y-haplos being eliminated from gene pool

    I suspect that it was easier for female mtDNA lines to survive through the turmoils of our ancient past than some male lines. What happens when one tribe conquers another? The males were either killed in the battle, or were relegated to slavery; while the females were used as breeding stock. At least that must've happened now and then, human nature being what it is.

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  • Andrew M
    replied
    This question has crossed my mind a few times too. As someone with few matches I have come to label my own passing thoughts as "The Lone Ranger Scenario." The story behind the Lone Ranger is that there was a group of rangers in Texas who were ambushed in an incident and only one lived. He called himself "The Lone Ranger."

    The psychology of being alone even makes its way into the insensitive and famous politically incorrect "What do you mean we?" joke between Tonto and the Lone Ranger.

    Anyway, I just wanted to say that I wonder about genocide results because I read so much of them in history. For instance, did you know that the 30-years-war right after the time of Martin Luther caused the deaths of 1/3 of the German population?

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  • robe3b
    replied
    Originally posted by tomcat
    I doubt the Holocaust extinguished widespread haplogroups, altho it may have extinguished rarities and may have made formerly widespread haplogroups less widespread. The area most affected would have Eastern Europe.
    Tom,

    By "some Jewish Y lines", I rather meant haplotypes, not haplogroups.

    Roberto

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  • tomcat
    replied
    I doubt the Holocaust extinguished widespread haplogroups, altho it may have extinguished rarities and may have made formerly widespread haplogroups less widespread. The area most affected would have Eastern Europe.

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  • robe3b
    started a topic Genocide and Y lines extinction

    Genocide and Y lines extinction

    I am aware that this is a very painful and delicate issue, but I have decided to raise it because of its scientific implications.
    I wonder whether a catastrophic historical event as the nazi genocide of the European Jews, might have caused the extinction of some, or even many, Jewish Y lines.
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