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**Jim Honeychuck** · 12 November 2006, 08:25 AM

mu01dr,

You have done your homework well.

I assume your results are among those on the FTDNA J Project site. Note that Bonnie has a grouping by DYS391=11, of which 4 of 8 cases are Arab.

Regards,

Jim
J1, not Arab

**mu01dr** · 12 November 2006, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by Jim Honeychuck

mu01dr,

You have done your homework well.

I assume your results are among those on the FTDNA J Project site. Note that Bonnie has a grouping by DYS391=11, of which 4 of 8 cases are Arab.

Regards,

Jim
J1, not Arab

Hi Jim,

Yes I am part of both FTDNA J and Arabian Peninsula projects.
DYS 391= 11 with a high DYS 388 = 17-19 seems to be an interesting cluster for J1s. The specialist will certainly tell us soon what is about.
Unfortunately I have got a quite common DYS 391 = 10 ...

**Shaibani** · 13 November 2006, 06:14 AM

Originally posted by mu01dr

Hi Jim,

Yes I am part of both FTDNA J and Arabian Peninsula projects.
DYS 391= 11 with a high DYS 388 = 17-19 seems to be an interesting cluster for J1s. The specialist will certainly tell us soon what is about.
Unfortunately I have got a quite common DYS 391 = 10 ...

Hi mu01dr,

You are right, most Arabs on that project do cluster under DYS 399 = 17-19.

It seems that these Arabs are mainly of Qahtanite lineage (i.e "Arab people from the southern part of the Middle East " as in the quote you have posted).

All of those who tested for 37 markers show YCAIIa-22/YCAIIb-22.

The other branch of Arabs, the Adnanites, who include the Beni Hilal tribe that migrated to North Africa do not show such a cluster, rather they are varied:some fall under the same clusted as Qahtanites, some are J1 (with DYS 391=10 & DYS 388 = 15,16) some are J2 and even one is of G Haplogroup.

As more of this branch of Arabs get tested I hope we will be able to see a similar cluster as that for Qahtanite Arabs.

Here is an interesting article to look at that deals with North Africa:

A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa

It includes a table of 15 STRs for subjects studied. Unfortunately, I could not find your particle STR amongst them.

Another article which shows Arab STRs is Nebel et al 2000. It identifies the following as I & P Arabs Modal Haplotype:

14-17-22-11-11-12 (DYS 19 - 388 - 390 - 391 - 392 - 293)

Notice that this Modal Haplotype is only one step from the modal of the cluster we have in the Arabian Peninsula Project (14-17-23-11-11-12). This particular modal Haplotype (i.e with DYS 390 = 23) has been identified as the "Sana Modal Haplotype" by Thomas et al 2000, indicating it more typical of the southern Arabians (i.e Qahtanites).

The Nebel article also states " Although Arabs and Jews showed a high frequency of hapotypes with a DYS 388 repeat number >= 15, the distribution of the alleles was different in each population. DYS 388 allele 17 was found almost exclusively in Arabs, while allele 16 was common among Jews."

Considering that the Beni Hilal are Adnanite Arabs, who are closer to Jews than Qahtanite Arabs since Adnanites are believed to be children of Ishmael, your DYS 388 = 16 results makes sense from this perspective.

Most studies that deal with Arabs so far do not differentiate between the two types of Arabs, so your results could be typical of Adnanite Arabs but if you keep comparing it to data for Qahtanite Arabs you might come to the wrong conclusion: that your results show that you are not of Arabic origin.

The Nebel et al 2001 article identifies the Bedouin modal Haplotype as (14-15-23-10-11-13) which has no occurence in the Arabian Peninsula Project.

**HapJ1** · 13 November 2006, 01:08 PM

J1 in North Africa: Nebel's haplotypes

I commend Shaibani for his thoroughness. I too would refer you to Almut Nebel's work on haplotypes of the Middle East and North Africa and point out that DYS 388=16 is part of the Cohen Modal Haplotype. I too have 16 @ 388 and the other markers of the CMH although there is no known Jewish tradition in my family.

Your question and its replies lead me to ask what can we tell of our remote ancestors based upon the Nebel delineated haplotypes? How much faith can we put in them?

Y DNA J1
mtDNA H7

**mu01dr** · 18 November 2006, 11:58 AM

J1 in North Africa at Neolithic

Originally posted by Shaibani

Here is an interesting article to look at that deals with North Africa:

A Predominantly Neolithic Origin for Y-Chromosomal DNA Variation in North Africa

It includes a table of 15 STRs for subjects studied. Unfortunately, I could not find your particle STR amongst them.

.

Hi Shaibani,

Thank you for the document. Before reading this article I had the wrong idea that the main J1 source in North Africa was the arab expansion from the 7th century.
It seems that not only E3b but also J could have been brought from the Middle east to North Africa at neolithic times. Please correct me if I misunderstood the conclusion.

"These people could have carried, among others,
the E3b and J lineages, after which the M81 mutation
arose within North Africa and expanded along with the
Neolithic population into an environment containing
few humans."

M81 mutation appeared to be the marker of this expansion for E3b. Could there be a way to differentiate north african J1s from both neolithic and much more recent arab expansions ?

**mohand1978** · 21 November 2006, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by mu01dr

Could there be a way to differentiate north african J1s from both neolithic and much more recent arab expansions ?

Certainly, but more tests should be done on the north african populations particularly on the arabs tribes. (Not arabized tribes but arabs tribes).

**Shaibani** · 22 November 2006, 01:53 AM

mu01dr,

I second what Muhanad said. More studies are required to be able to differentiate between the J1s arriving as part of Neolithic expansion and those coming more recently from Arab expansions.

Unlike the Berbers & M81, to my knowlegde there is no single marker that has been discovered which is exclusive to Arabs.

By looking at the results in the study we find that the most common J1 haplotype (found in 9 Tunisians) is also found in 3 members of the Arabian Peninsula Project. It has DYS 391 = 11, DYS 388 = 17, DYS 439 = 11, DYS 389b = 17.

On the other hand if we consider that the Berbers were the indigeneous people in western North Africa before the Arab expansion and hence would be more representative of the Neolithic genes, we find that J1 is only found in 3 out of the 19 people analyzed (15.7%). Unfortunately only one has been analyzed for STR and his results show DYS 391 = 10, DYS 388 = 17, DYS 439 = 11, DYS 389b = 17. This being barely a single mutation from the above.

**Jay1** · 29 November 2006, 02:51 AM

Need Comments Please

J 1 - 12-23-14-11-12-18-11-17-11-13-11-30
I am pretty much in the dark about these results except for what I have recently read , so I need all the input I can get. Please start with "what am I and where did my Ancestors come from" and go from there, but please be gentile with me .

**Jim Honeychuck** · 29 November 2006, 08:42 AM

Originally posted by Jay1

J 1 - 12-23-14-11-12-18-11-17-11-13-11-30
I am pretty much in the dark about these results except for what I have recently read , so I need all the input I can get. Please start with "what am I and where did my Ancestors come from" and go from there, but please be gentile with me .

Jay,

Be gentile? Intentional or unintentional wit, considering the ambiguity of J1.

Anyway, put your numbers into www.yhrd.org. I did so quickly (doublecheck for yourself) and I see only one match for you: Tunis. Does that sound right?

Also see if you match any cases at http://www.m410.net/yjdb/view.php?option=M267

Jim
J1 of an odd European type

**efgen** · 29 November 2006, 09:53 AM

Originally posted by Jay1

J 1 - 12-23-14-11-12-18-11-17-11-13-11-30
I am pretty much in the dark about these results except for what I have recently read , so I need all the input I can get. Please start with "what am I and where did my Ancestors come from" and go from there, but please be gentile with me .

Join the haplogroup J project, if you haven't already. http://www.ftdna.com/public/Y-DNA_J

You'll be grouped with others who have similar DNA results. I see only one person currently in the project with the same 12 markers as you, under the "J1 w/ DYS391=11" category.

Your own Y-DNA Matches tab should show you more matches. Also look at your Recent Ancestral Origins tab to see what your matches reported as their ancestral origins.

**Jay1** · 29 November 2006, 11:35 AM

Be gentile? Intentional or unintentional wit

Nothing to do with wit, it was a plea, not to overwhelm this county girl with alot of terms that I may not understand.
Maybe I should explain alittle more, I am a female so this YDNA came from a close familiy member that carrys the same suname as I was born with, I know only some of the basics about the use of DNA in Genealogy.
I originally submitted the sample to FTDNA through a surname group, hoping to find some matches, haha, NOT. I have already joined the J project and they have been very helpful to me, I also joined YSEARCH.
I noticed this group last night, so I read the posts and I thought, maybe you guys could give me some insight on the whole J1 picture . The Arabia thing sounds very interesting, maybe you could explain to me how my family YDNA fits into that picture.
Thanks to all of you who answered my first post, I will check out your suggestions.

YDNA J1

**Jim Honeychuck** · 29 November 2006, 11:54 AM

There aren't a lot of J1 samples in the databases, but there may be enough to give you a pointer. Let us know what fits and doesn't.

Jim

**Shaibani** · 1 December 2006, 11:40 AM

Originally posted by Jay1

I originally submitted the sample to FTDNA through a surname group, hoping to find some matches, haha, NOT.

But your results are already one-step away from another Hall in that project (kit #73648), with the following information:

Descendants of David Hall, Sr of NC

David Hall Sr., born about 1783, N.C.

James H. Hall, born about 1823, Marion County, Arkansas

Wesley Hall, born about 1849, Marion County, Arkansas

James Hall, born about 1872, Missouri

Herbert Houston Hall, born about 1900, Oklahoma

Thomas Hall, born about 1923, Oklahoma

=================================

on ysearch your results are also one step away from the Sisemores (3 entries) with the following info:

First Name: James
Last Name: Sisemore
Year Born: 1835
Year Died: 1919
Country of Origin: Unknown
Latitude:
Longitude:

Additional information about Paternal Line:
Born in Marion Co., AR

=================

Notice that two of David Hall's descendants also were in Marion Country Arkansas.

So I guess the first starting point is to try to get intouch with the other Hall or the Sisemores and compare notes since they seem to share more than similiarities in DNA results with you.

As for Arabia, yes two of the members from the Arabian Peninsula project are one step away from your results, but just looking at the 12 marker results this would be a very far connection. 25 marker or even 37 markers would be more meaningful to draw a conclusion.

**Jay1** · 1 December 2006, 10:05 PM

J1 Matches

Shaibani, thank you, yes we have been waiting on David Hall Sr's results, but they weren't a surprise to me, I expected a match. I have been researching these lines for many years so I already have a paper trail back to thier common ancestor. What I am interested in is leaning more about the Haplogroup this line belongs to, there just doesn't seem to be much out there .
Thanks for your reply

Jay1

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J1 presence in north Africa

J1 presence in north Africa

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